This post that's been floating around Fishhook sums up my feelings on anti-trans bathroom laws pretty well:

- Dear creepy heterosexual men guarding our bathrooms,

My entire life, I've been told to fear you in one way or another. I've been told to cover my body as to not distract you in school, to cover my body to help avoid unwanted advances or comments, to cover my body as to not tempt you to sexually assault me, to reject your unwanted advances politely as to not anger you. I've been taught to never walk alone at night, to hold my keys in my fist while walking in parking lots, to check the backseat of my car, to not drink too much because you might take advantage of me. I've been told what I should and shouldn't do with my body as to not jeopardize my relationships with you.

I've been warned not to emasculate you, to let "boys be boys", to protect your fragile ego and to not tread on your even more fragile masculinity. I've been taught to keep my emotions in check, to let you be the unit of measure for how much emotion is appropriate and to adjust my emotions accordingly. I've been taught that you're allowed to categorize women into mothers/sisters/girlfriends/wives/daughters but any woman outside of your protected categories is fair game.

So to those of you who think you're being helpful by "protecting" me and my fellow women, you're like a shark sitting in the Lifeguard chair. I wasn't uncomfortable until you showed up at the pool and the only potential predator I see is you.

Your mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives and daughters don't need you to walk them to the bathroom for safety. Your fathers, brothers, friends and sons need to walk themselves away from their own double standards. Women are sexually harassed and sexually assaulted on school campuses, on the street, at their jobs, on the Internet, in their own homes, in ANY public place. And it has been excused or ignored for so long because of what you and I are taught from the first years of our interactions with each other: You, as a male, are not accountable for your own actions. It's MY responsibility, as a female, to not "provoke" you. But then you get to Knight-In-Shining-Armor your way through life for those in your protected categories and I am expected to applaud you. Why the outrage now over bathrooms? Why aren't you outraged every single day?

If you're telling me that there are high volumes of boys and men out there, in schools or in general, who are just waiting for a "loop hole" to sexually assault girls and women, we have bigger problems on our hands than bathrooms. The first problem would be your apparent lack of knowledge of how often it happens OUTSIDE of bathrooms, with no "loop holes" needed. This isn't about Transgender bathroom access. This is about you not trusting the boys and men in your communities and/or fearing that they're all secretly predators. Why do you have this fear? How many fathers have panicked when their daughters started dating because they "know how teenaged boys can be because they used to be one"? How many times have girls been warned "boys are only after one thing"? A mother can bring her young son into the women's restroom and that's fine but a father bringing his young daughter into the men's restroom is disturbing because men are assumed to be predators and "little girls" shouldn't be exposed to that.

So instead of picking up your sword and heading to Target or the girls' locker room to defend our "rights", why don't you start somewhere that could actually make a difference? Challenge your children's schools to end sexist dress codes and dress codes that sexualize girls as young as age 5. Advocate for proper (or any) sex education classes in all public schools by a certain grade level. Focus more on teaching your sons not to rape vs teaching your daughters how to avoid being raped. Stop asking "How would you feel if that was your mother or sister?" It shouldn't take the comparison to clue you in to what's right or wrong. Question why you're more worried about your daughter being around men than your son being around women in bathrooms and dressing rooms. Stop walking by Victoria's Secret with no problem but covering your son's eyes if a woman is breastfeeding in public. Stop treating your daughter's body as some fortress you're sworn to protect as if that's all she's got to offer the world.- Kasey Rose Hodge

Right? This guy would never have raped anyone if he wasn't allowed in the bathroom because going into the girls bathroom is against the rules.

(Seriously I have several female friend that have had peeping toms etc in the woman's bathroom. This debate is stupid and nothing much more than a semi-manufactured media distraction imnsho)

Point of order: This didn't take place in a bathroom.

A sexual predator who falsely claimed to be transgender and preyed on women at two Toronto shelters was jailed indefinitely on Wednesday.

Maybe that's why it hasn't come up before.

I posted this story weeks ago along with several other cases
of men using current transgender laws to invade women’s safe spaces.

Fair enough. I probably missed it. Although I may have skipped it because something is weird with the formatting of that post on my phone, lots of invalid characters.

No, actually you cited several cases of men behaving in a predatory fashion that had nothing whatsoever to do with 'current transgender laws' (including this one).

Men have also been known to use Rohypnol to invade women's "safe" spaces.

A sexual predator is asexual predator is a sexual predator.

Yes. But using Rohypnol in this manner is illegal.

Up until five minutes ago, 50 year old men sitting naked in the change room as six year old girls changed for swimming was likewise illegal. You think that prohibition was unjust. I don't.

Sexual assault of any kind is illegal, regardless of tactics used. The problem isn't how they do it, it's that they do it in the first place.

I also think that 50 years old men sitting naked in the same change room as six year old boys is unjust. Nobody wants to see that shit at six.

"I also think that 50 years old men sitting naked in the same change room as six year old boys is unjust. Nobody wants to see that shit at six. "

Amen my brother.

You were never a Catholic Altar boy, were you?

I have spent time doing fairly long distance hiking in Northern Spain a couple of times and I have something to say to European middle-aged and older men:. It is not ok to get naked in front of others just after meeting them in an Albergue. Doing the "Zo, from vere are you coming?" stuff while drying your soon-to-be-superannuated balls with one of those tiny travel towels is also not ok. And drying your hands on the same towel and then offering a handshake while still bollock naked is certainly not ok.

It is NEVER the hot French bird. NEVER!

It's like you think a sexual or violent predator couldn't a) exist before a certain law came in to being, and b) wouldn't always be looking for avenues to exploit potential victims regardless of who is allowed in what bathroom.

I'm not sure it's a distinction that matters in this context. The point was using transgenderism to gain access to a gender-restricted area.

Sustained. This time, counselor.

Jesus does this guy look like a young Steven Morrissey...

This Charming Man referred to in the article? Well, Heaven knows he is miserable now.

If you have any requests then ask me, ask me, ask me.

What effect are bathroom laws going to have on anyone's ability to access a public bathroom? They aren't locked. I could walk into either right now. The only real effect would be to allow persecution of the transgendered after the fact.

Reading the article, it's clear to me that the guy has mental/brain problems; perhaps fœtal alcohol syndrome. Justifiable public outrage has led to him being tried and convicted according to a standard which he doesn't meet. Note this doesn't mean that I think he should go free.

Intellectual honesty does not require acknowledging all viewpoints. We don't debate holocaust deniers or phrenologists. The point has been decided, and anyone who insists otherwise is rightly censured.

So you're saying it has been determined beyond reasonable doubt that nobody is using transgenderism as a tool to commit criminal acts? Because it really hasn't.

Secondly, since when has anything ever been accomplished by refusing to talk to someone? Refusal to engage with others is why echo-chamber culture exists.

I don't think it's likely that any of us will get numbers to change their mind, but it's a great opportunity to refine our own ideas. For example, that there are negative consequences to allowing people to unilaterally assert gender identity. These consequences don't outweigh the benefits IMO, but it's not honest to assert something is good without at least considering the ways that it might be bad. I saw a part of the debate that I wasn't aware of. I didn't like what it implied, but I'll be damned if I'll pretend it doesn't exist.

Anyway, I don't argue the troll mod. Trolls post things that incite arguments, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't know this would start another fight. I just consider this a constructive argument. I feel like I'm getting something out of it, anyway.

The question is on it's face bigoted. Has it been determined beyond reasonable doubt that nobody is using cisgenderism as a tool to commit criminal acts? It's an absurdity.

What has ever been gained by talking to holocaust deniers or phrenologists? Ignoring the absurd and ridiculous doesn't make for an echo chamber. That's a false dilemma.

I have no interest in changing numbers mind. I have no interest in including them, or their ideas, in my society at all. We'd all be better off if people like that didn't exist. Pretending they don't is almost as good.

I never realized that ignoring problems was almost as good as them not existing. Next time I hear that people are passing a law to prevent transgender people from using their choice of restroom, I'm going to pretend they don't exist. That's almost as good as trying to stop them.

There's a difference between ignoring people, and ignoring their actions. Of course we should overturn those laws, but that doesn't mean we have to address the concerns of the people who passed them. That only rewards their outburst.

Foodbar knows fully well that he’ll get his ass handed to him if he engages me in debate – so he spends an inordinate amount of time using the drop down menu as some kind of surrogate (see below).

I don’t know what gender he identifies as, but I know he has no balls.

I'm upmodding this so that those who engage with numbers are more likely to see it. Is this really a person worthy of your attention? They should be beneath your contempt.

This is the equivalent of "we've finally found an example of the mythical welfare queen!" The fact that it has happened once or twice doesn't prove anything beyond "it can happen"; the real question is "how often does it happen" and the reality is that it's probably not worth the trouble most of the time - just as having another kid just to get more gubmint money usually isn't worth the trouble.

IOW, yes, "that never happens" is often a foolish move in a debate. "That doesn't happen often enough to matter" is the safer and more reality-based argument.

Thank fuck somebody finally gets the point I was trying to make. Took you people long enough.

They're trying to apply the same "logic" that they do to voter fraud. They passed craploads of voter ID laws with the goal of preventing people they don't like from voting, while the only real examples of voting fraud are either minuscule to the point of irrelevancy, or they're committed by the same people/party trying to restrict voting in the first place.

Um... sorry but no. A simple claim of being transgender doesn't make you transgender.

How can you be so dense as to not get even that? Oh, right. You are using hyper-exaggeration to make an invalid point.

Having a feeling of your sexual identity being different than what you are born makes you transgender.

It's pretty simple. In your argument, a bigot who hates blacks and mexicans but claims he isn't a bigot, isn't a bigot; when in fact he is.


Edit: see? The first answer in your link even agrees with me.
A transgender person should use the restroom that corresponds to his or her gender identity.

Numbers is completely right, though I disagree with the phrasing and the conclusions. The problem that liberals (and I consider myself one) are failing to address is that this is exactly what the transgender community wants: the right to be whatever gender they like, on the strength of nothing more than self-declaration. And how do you prove if someone is lying?

The difference between numbers and me is that I don't think there's anything wrong with that, at least not as an ideal.

But, people can and will take advantage of that right, and we can't ignore it. At the very least, we have to acknowledge the fact that some people will use this as an excuse or a means to do wrong, and be prepared to either assume that risk as the price of freedom, or try and find some reasonable compromise.

I'm not sure anything does need to be done: sexual assault laws should cover this already. But we can't pretend it's a non-existent concern.

Numbers is expressing a common viewpoint— that we should not protect the disenfranchised because there will be those who will take advantage of the situation. It could be argued that we should let the poor starve because there may be people who can afford food who will take the free offering and sell it. It is an inhumane point of view.

A tiny extension would be that we should ban freedom of speech because people like Numbers use it to express sexist sentiments and That's Just Wrong™. It's time to put away childish things, including prejudices.

Work with a competent psychologist can accurately identify those who are pretending and those whom truly identify as a different gender.

I understand if you would like to subject everyone to this in order to prove the veracity of their claims. I personally think we should accept people on their word, until their behaviour proves otherwise.

It's not like doing one or the other will prevent people from abusing either system.

There's no way you could possibly know that.

You don't know if the condition of being transgendered is pretend. That's the fact. If you insist on using pronouns that match a person's chromosomes, that's your prerogative. But it has no bearing on whether or not they are pretending.

Restating your opinion again doesn't make it any more objectively true. You don't and can't know if they're pretending and you've given no additional evidence to support your claim of omniscience.

For my benefit, please screenshot this thread and highlight the part where I talked about real and fake pretend. Then, for my amusement, tell me again that I can't read. Because you're the only one who has brought that up, and your the one who claims to know what's going on in the mind of others.

Edit: Goddammit, I just realized you're kylemcbitch.

I've already been through this once and you have no problem deciding what goes on in other people's minds.

They may all be "pretending" to be men or women, but deep down, some truly feel that.

What is wrong with this? Please explain your position?

"But, people can and will take advantage of that right, and we can't ignore it. "

Of course we can't, and no one in any camp on the issue is proposing we do so. The thing is, that people taking advantage of situations happens all the time, everywhere. Daily, people take advantage of things that they shouldn't, even when we have laws and penalties to deter them. From things as simple as speeding to parking in a handicapped spot, to claiming worker's compensation and working under the table and too many other things to list.

Yes, we have consequences for those actions, but numbers and others like him aren't concerned about that. They are "concerned" about gender and sex and how it's presented by "others". Numbers really doesn't care that a a 6 year old girl might see a penis, he's concerned that a man might feel like a woman inside and that isn't compatible with his worldview of boys and girls. It's white-knighting and concern trolling at it's worst and says volumes about the person doing it.

These are the same people that are incensed and "concerned" about what two consenting adult men might do in the privacy of their own home.

If a simple claim doesn't make you transgender, what does - what test other than "claiming" is there?

None.

Oh, BTW - meet Layton/Layla

“Some days Layla Warlow, 18, wakes up and chooses to wear a dress and heels to work, while others she's a man and dons baggy jeans and workmen boots.
The youth centre volunteer from Swansea, South Wales, can spend as long as three months as her male counterpart Layton then suddenly switch to Layla for as little as a day.”

Special. Unicorn. Sauce.

Your post again proves my point.

Bi-gender Layla Warlow, 18, identifies as both sexes

Keyword is IDENTIFIES. This person isn't issuing a false claim for purposes of abuse, they truly feel this way.

Your invalid argument is once again dashed to the ground. Maybe try linking something that shows something to the contrary? Oh wait, you can't. I will give you one guess as to why.

Perhaps because gender identity isn't the absolutist all-or-nothing your 19th century ideology assumes it to be?

"All or nothing?" - surely you jest.

Facebook has more than 50 gender identities.

50 genders is good.

75 genders will be double plus good.

But when we get to 100 I think it’s time to sell.

Why do we have all these pesky different words for emotions? All we really need are "happy" and "sad"! anything else anyone claims to experience is just because they want to feel like a special snowflake-- but not so much that they have a different emotion for it, of course. That would go against what I learned when I was 8.

Do you also think that atoms are tiny little red marbles traveling in ovals around a slightly bigger blue marble?

You know, the Inuit have a hundred words for snowflakes... they probably have one just for you!

Dibs on the one that translates to "unsurprised resignation that you're unwilling to engage in discussion at a level greater than that of an 8 year old". Trump isn't the only end product of the decades-long right wing war on intellectual discourse, I suppose.

feel free to amp up the conversation to a nine year old level

just don't labour under any misapprehension that you have done so yet

I kinda figured "-1 Boring" was pretty self-explanatory, but allow me to elucidate: watching you make the same predictable comments on the same two topics over and over is -- wait for it... boring.

I'll be happy to stop modding your boring comments boring the minute you make the slightest effort to talk about anything else. (And no, "Stop downmodding my talking points, you liberal!" doesn't count.)

You don't have to STOP with the Muslim and tranny bashing -- everyone has the right to their own dumb, wrong opinions -- just ALSO talk about something else as well. Anything. Like you would if you were a human being and not a boring spam-bot.

Here, I'll make it easy for you: what kind of music do you like?

Completely unrelated, because I'm staying the fuck out of this conversation, as I don't have a tenth the patience for dealing with 1234's stupid bullshit that you do...

...but if you haven't read his books, Hannu Rajaniemi is the craziest person to hit sci-fi in years. The Quantum Thief is a bit tough to read at first, because he throws all these new words at you, often without explaining them (picture a renaissance person being dropped into our present and being perplexed by all the words for technology that we take for granted). Slowly, though, you understand what's going on, and then you're in for a wild ride. I'd recommend all three of the books in that series, and then reread the first fifty pages or so of the first one, which will suddenly make much more sense.

The whole series is pretty good and will probably warrant a re-read for me at some point. I loved that he tosses you into his universe and expects you to keep up, but it certainly was challenging to keep it all straight.

We need a -1 Glass Houses mod.