In which Paul Krugman proves incrementalism doesn't apply to conservativism.

How odd.

Not really, since fast food cashiers are being replaced by touch screen kiosks.

Please stop with the robot Apocalypse...Once again letting the perfect be the enemy of the good...

Nevermind.

With all the trouble we have you need to predict one...can't raise the minimum wage because it works against your solution for a problem that may or may not happen...can't have a jobs program for the same reason....

I think we should stop working on roads because we are all getting flying cars...

No means no.

What the fuck is wrong with you? Why do you keep claiming to know what other people are thinking and starting fights with them? You didn't even address Steele's comment, you just saw your chance for an argument and went right to being a dick.

Are you telling me that you've been going around editing your comments after people have modded and replied to them without realizing that people can see your edit history by clicking on that number showing us how many times you've edited? I've seen you edit in walls of text after I've replied or modded a comment. Were you ignorant others could see that? Have you been purposely trying to misrepresent people's responses to you?

The guy you're quoting wrote a whole fucking article about why he thinks basic income is better than guaranteed jobs. Did you read it?

How about YOU for once try and defend your position.

It doesn't mater what he thinks...it maters what can be done...this jobs program is a hard stretch...but it is possible...UBI is a pipe dream...a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. But by taking that positions you are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good....fairy dust is not the answer it is a pipe dream.

There are several test cases no going on for UBI most are working fairly well...my point is there are things we can do now...people are in trouble now and it is not do to a robots taking over...it is due to low wages...jobs...Most poor people have two of them.


The problem is that the woman who works at nurses aid doesn't make enough to survive let alone buy things like a car, the guy who works at the gas station has to have another job just to pay the bills...but we can't raise the MW because of robots.

I think you make some good points, but you do need to pull back a bit. I normally have to yell at norok and numbers for this but you have to ASSUME good faith of your ideological competitors. Until they show you bad faith, that is.

Everyone speaking here is a friend who just happens to disagree with you. Argue why you’re right, not why they’re wrong.

Just friendly advice. :-)

I'm old and cranky and repeating myself over three times will cause my tone to change...thanks for the advise.

Just a reply to the nurse aids.not making a living. If teachers can get a raise by a mass walk off, you know low paid health providers could. Problem is unlike the dick governor saying teachers put children at risk walking, nurses aids realy would put people at risk, and I don't think most of them would do it for that reason. A shame realy, taking care of people is hard work for low pay.

Im trying to workout who said basic jobs was a better alternative to ubi. The article itself is against it, and lists reasons why. Steele and raphael haven't said much to that effect either, even in the edited versions of their replies. This thread just seems to start off with a rant about kids these days with their robot apocalypse.

Yeah, you're getting one word responses. The initial one wasn't, and you can argue why it should have been left to stand. But i can see why just throwing your hands up and walking away was the logical choice. You're just being strident and picking fights, and when they won't play ball you just put up strawmen. Dude, if its been a rough day, have a coke and smile. Get your Woohsah on.

1hr Woosah Relaxation music, Meditation Music, Sleeping Music, Soothing Music, Insomnia


Right now you're not elevating the conversation, just your blood pressure.

So this just swings back to you being the arbiter for which ideas are worthwhile to talk about and which ones are not

No it doesn't. It has to do with people like the guy who wrote this saying that we can't support MW increase of the propose jobs program because they will slow down the pipe dream of UBI...the perfect being the enemy of the good.

Hey I'm all for UBI.and would like to talk about it more...just not to the exclusion of all other ideas. The selling point for UBI is the robot Apocalypse and yea that is a possibility...and it is good there are test programs of UBI all around the world. But it is not the problem we face today.

Is that measured in social media likes per second,

No it is based on votes in congress.

So now everyone who disagree with you is a Troll? People unlike you who actual have the guts to support this pie in the sky pipe dream and make their arguments are troll food...get over yourself.

What kind of timetable should I expect...tomorrow? Because you have been predicting this for years now.

All I see is a steady drop in unemployment, a steady rise in new jobs, at the very same time technology is making huge strides.

Never. Mind.

Oh I see your position is based in...bullshit.

See even Picard knows it bull.

Or maybe I missed the argument where it is better not to try and fix the problem.

If tech is giving everyone great new jobs, why are the Democrats mentioned in the article you obviously didn't read proposing government funded guaranteed jobs programs?

Did you skip the $15 an hour MW that goes with them?

And Oh its not Tech giving them jobs. It's demand like always. and the more people who have disposable income the more the demand.

"Several plans — one co-designed by Darity, a proposal from New Jersey Sen. Cory Booker, another outline from Sanders — also would provide wages much higher than the federal minimum wage (currently $7.25) and benefits that are unheard of for many current low-wage workers."

...

All of the jobs would give people paid family and sick leave, pay that eventually phases up to $15 an hour..."

A shitty government McJob that ("eventually") pays $15 an hour is not the same as a $15 minimum wage. I understand that the idea is that businesses will have to raise their wages to compete for workers, but I think that's a naive position. Companies that already owe their existence to paying lousy wages will find ways to keep doing so. They'll hire "interns" at 8 bucks an hour with vague promises of future promotions, they'll promote one guy to "manager" at the bare minimum salary that makes them exempt from overtime pay and make them work mandatory 60 hour weeks doing the work of four people, they'll take advantage of whatever ends up being shitty about the guaranteed government McJobs (the article has plenty of arguments for why those jobs will be shitty, I won't waste space retyping them here) and offer solutions in lieu of decent pay ("Oh, the government McJob facility is a two hour bus ride away? Work here for $8 an hour and free Uber rides!") And yes, in some cases they'll find a way to automate those jobs out of existence.

If there's a true $15 federal minimum (which I support btw, I don't know where you're getting this idea that UBI and $15/ hour are mutually exclusive) companies are still going to cut hours, lay people off, and automate -- or even go out of business altogether if their unethical business models are centered around exploiting workers on starvation wages -- but at least there will be fewer opportunities to screw workers of a living wage.

The biggest problem with government McJobs is that they're unnecessary. Like you said, demand creates jobs. If there was a real demand for whatever these government jobs would be producing, wouldn't those jobs already exist? Inventing fake jobs to supply a non-existent demand just creates useless busywork that the poor are forced to do for 40 hours a week before they get their handout. Instead of wasting resources hiring and managing people and coming up with useless tasks for them to complete, wouldn't it be more efficient to just give them tje money, freeing up their time to go to school, learn a trade through apprenticeship, start a business, contribute to society through volunteer work, or just be able to live their lives with dignity?

Oh any MW increase would have to be phased in. All of that is good and fine as long as it is based on a $15 wage at the time it is passed and then annually adjusted for inflation...works out in the end.

it doesn't mater if you work at Mickey D's or sell shoes at the local store...and no business is going to lay off workers when they are selling more shoes or burgers because people can afford to buy them now.

Business is already automating as fast as they can get the public to accept it and technology will let them. Raising the MW will have no effect on it one way or another.

Those fake jobs you mean like The Civilian Conservation Corps or Works Progress Administration or any number of other things we could do.

the poor are forced to do for 40 hours a week before they get their handout.

That is the only way you are going to sell it to the right...and you need some of them to sell it...a even getting them with a work requirement is going to God all Mighty hard...That should make my point.

WPA built Grand Couley Dam, tens of thousands of miles of paved road, bridges overpasses. Murals were painted in Post forces that are considered fairly great art works. The State History books are still used by researchers. Yes the (mostly republican) press of the time mostly talked about lazy guys leaning on their shovels, but the result was pretty impresive.

As a reply to a comment on the WPA, hence the Great Depression 1929-1941, there is a lot of information on that. While the program's took away some of the pain, and we got some nice benefits from the activity, it's pretty much a accepted fact that WWII pulled us out of the Great Depression, and being a war that is pretty much always handled by central planning no matter what country.

Yeah. Where the hell do these people think the government gets money from? I’m pretty sure I’ve heard this same pitch from a guy trying to get me to invest in his perpetual motion machine.

Where do you think the government gets money from?

They tax the ever-lovin’ fuck out of me.

It's much like after the Agricultural Revolution. Since then, most of us have been able to sit around in smocks, drinking scrumpy and holding sexually suggestive village dances, while just a few people can grow food for all.

So, total coincidence, but last night I finished reading Kurt Vonnegut's Player Piano and it actually makes for a pretty good argument against a Job Guarantee in the age of automation. Really good story, highly relevant and worth the read.

Was that the one Hehere everyone not being productive on the civilian economy would go to work for reeks and reks?

Yes.

Have been noting the folks here rooting for guaranteed income, as well as in other media. Was not supprised to read that the Berny sanders folks are talking guaranteed employment. Retired now but remember working in low pay service jobs, then heavey industry. Hard work will kill you. So this week, I saw a Jacobin article against guaranteed income and such. Not that they were against it in principal, but that workers have been beaten down to where they have no power, or think they don't. The left, and Jacobin is closer to the left than most alternative media, says the owners of the world would have to take a cut for either to happen, and the workers and poor have no power at his time to make them. So Jacobins take is organizers need to get everyone organized then living wage would be possible for all. An old Union hand I know told me,"the more intelegent people are, the easier they are to organize" Hence almost 100% organization rate of medical doctors and highly skilled tradesmen at the industrial level. The recent teachers uprising points out the truth to this. Even though they have had their union power taken away politically, they are able to self organize and get things done. Only difference between a living wage job and a job paying below living wage is the level of organization