So the solution is to...let white rural voters know that we're just like them? Here's my problem with this argument: it works fine maybe for white urbanites. But for people of color, people with different sexual orientations...this is virtually impossible. Racism is so baked into the rural/urban divide that this will never happen. So what would happen if white urbanites made an effort to identify with white rural America? Non-white minorities would be left behind. I'll take a hard pass, thanks.

If that's what you took away from this, for fuck sake...

The point is when it comes to Populism, you gotta set they kinda shit aside. It's not about who is wrong or right and sticking to your guns. It's literally about not allowing a media portrayal of you or people like you to be the narrative. No one is saying "try not being black." They are saying "prove you're American." If this was about race, the same people that put Obama in power would not have been the same people that voted for Trump.

Short cutting this straight to racism is not going to help. We gotta stop pretending this is just about race. At a look at Trump, look at what he is doing. A fucking government agency dedicated solely to telling us about the crimes of brown people?

I am sorry, but it's more important to me that such a thing doesn't happen (or if it does, we kill it fast) than it is for me hold my head high and say "well at least I didn't cave on my stupid tribalism!"

If you think race wasn't a major factor in Trump's election, you're deluding yourself. No, most of the people who voted for Trump aren't your KKK-affiliated lynch mobs. But all of them were racist enough to ignore Trump's racist, xenophobic remarks for the promise of better jobs. To those people, it's impossible for a black or Latinx person to "prove they're American", because they don't matter to them.

I think a more useful approach is retaking and claiming the definition of "American" for ourselves. Instead of allowing Republicans to define patriotism and what it means to be an American, we take it for ourselves. It's patriotic and American to be inclusive. It's patriotic and American to look out for each other. It's patriotic and American to support immigration. Etc.

I don't think it didn't play a factor, I am saying we need a better answer than that. These ARE the same people that voted for Obama.

Twice.

You will not win a race to the bottom identity-politics-off. You can't. We are the party of coalition. They have a single demographic they need to give a shit about, and that demographic has the power right now, AND the ability if they wished, to ensure they hold on to it.

You want to fight fascist? Start by not fighting each other.

"Only one danger could have jeopardised this development – if our adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of our ideas, and not offered any resistance. Or, alternatively, if they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement." -Hitler, on how he played his opposition off each other.

Americans have already settled that. If you have possibly valid economic concerns, but start a war based on racism, it gets resolved with the end of a bayonet.

These are not the people who voted for Obama. Those people stayed home, because the Democrats insisted on running a candidate they'd already rejected. This won't be won by appealing to people who voted for Trump; they're irredeemable. It can only be won by bringing back the people Hillary pushed out of the party.

I am telling you, yes they are. Not just from my own experience, but everyone I know that debates these people, they will tell you the same thing: there enough people that voted for Trump that also voted for Obama you're going to find that you can't start the conversation at racism.

Not that they aren't racist. They are supporting a racist, don't do anything about racist in their midst, and clearly haven't figured out that equality isn't oppression.

What I am saying is, when you fight a populist facts are secondary. The mere fact there are so many people that voted for Obama that then in turn voted for Trump is all the baying crowds need to simply not care about your argument.

If that argument worked, it would have worked by now.

It's been two months since the election.

You fight a lying populist with an honest one. Running an electable, progressive populist that can hammer Trump on economic issues is what will get rid of him.

Collaborating with bigots will just make you one of them.

I am not asking for collaboration with them, I am asking for collaboration with US, the people opposed to him.

The fact people can't understand that is the problem here.

That honest populist is years from being able to do anything. In the mean time, we have to fight this. The opposition to get their guys in the streets, they need to get them eating hot dogs and drinking beer, of if they are Muslim, hanging out with people that are doing those things and not letting it bother them.

We need to turn ourselves human, because if history, my own families experience, and the gentleman who write the article can attest to... it's super easy to dehumanize ANYONE.

Obama was first elected to the Senate the cycle before he became president.

We aren't going to humanize Trump supporters. History has shown that they don't respond to that. Once they step into the Sudetenland, you have to be ready to respond with force or be rolled over.

There will be a time for truth and reconciliation, but that can only happen after the war.

No, I am not worried about humanizing them. I am talking about humanizing *us*. We aren't the people cheering on a man who's creating a propaganda department.

Then I don't follow. How have we been dehumanized?

The fact you don't follow is exactly the problem, foobar. It's exactly what I, and the person who wrote this article are telling you.

I can't explain it to you any better than it already has been.

Well, he's wrong. History doesn't look fondly on appeasers.

Who the fuck said anything about appeasement? No one is suggesting backing down on our views, they saying we can't let them run the narrative they are, how they are. We only do that by being humans and not caricatures.

We've seen this happen many, many times. Everytime, this much is at the heart of it. 1 group has one identity, the opposition has many. If group one plays identity politics, they win because they can afford to play such a game.

We stick to our guns, but we bring a human face to the fight... or we lose it. The author is not wrong. Hugo Chavez happened, and what this man said it took to bring him down? That happened too.

They didn't bring him down. Chavez died in office, of natural causes. The article is more a list of fails.

Point. I should say "what it took to get the opposition back in public standing."

I don't think Chavez is really comparable. He was elected legitimately.

So was Trump, sadly.

That's either using the word "elected" or "legitimately" in a wholly novel fashion.

He didn't get the most votes, so he wasn't elected, though he may have won.

I am a Democrat, this party was founded on outrage of the person getting less votes winning. But that's doesn't change that it's a legitimate win, by the rules in place here. We can change those rules, but we can retroactively nullify them.

It's a win by the rules in place in the United States, but it's not a democratic win, hence we wasn't legitimately elected.

See, it's not a democratic win. I will agree this is anti-democratic.

But what you're not getting is, this is a legitimate win all the same. Worse? If we try to force an illegal action through, we are talking about a shooting war, probably with more than a dozen sides. Who do you think has the guns here? It's not me, or most people like me.

Trump told his followers it was okay to attack people at his rallies. What do you think will happen when we try to force him out of power with no more precedent than our wishes and dreams?

Can we please be sane? If I am going to fight, I am going to fight to win. This is not something we can really afford to fuck up.

Hitler only had 37% of the vote. It's not about what's true, it's about what you can make stupid, angry people believe.

That's the thing; this is probably coming to a shooting war no matter what.

Yeah well, forgive me for being so god ready to give up trying before the bullets start. There is not a scenario where urban centers win such an exchange. So, lets do everyone a favor and put aside our BULLSHIT for a minute and try to get on the path that doesn't result in my country Balkanizing.

Good luck, but I think your country Balkanizing is probably the best outcome.

Tell that to the Muslims the Serbs murdered.

I didn't say good outcome. Hopefully the Rockies protect the Left Coast?

The West Coast would be the worst bloodbath of all. Washington and Oregon are basically full of militia and neo-nazi compounds out in the sticks, and California's got yeehawtist in terrifying numbers as well.

With under 25% of the voting population. The system is broken. That's the larger point.

No disagreement there.

this is excellent.