Tuesday, 15 November 2016

There’s No Such Thing as a Good Trump Voter

quote [ Donald Trump ran a campaign of racist demagoguery against Muslim Americans, Hispanic immigrants, and black protesters. He indulged the worst instincts of the American psyche and winked to the stream of white nationalists and anti-Semites who backed his bid for the White House. Millions of Americans voted for this campaign, thus elevating white nationalism and white reaction to the Oval Office. ]

They are scum.
[SFW] [politics] [-2 Flamebait]
[by Dalillama@8:31pmGMT]


midden said @ 8:44pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:5 Underrated]
... unless some of them happen to be people you know and love. I have a dear family member who voted Trump. I disagree with him about many things, but he is a good person. It's been very good for me to have a first person relationship with someone who holds many completely opposite political and social beliefs. I think his vote for Trump was mistaken, but that in no way nullifies the vastly greater number of good and positive qualities he continues to have. This "no such thing as a good Trump supporter," just fans the flames.
tigsnort said @ 11:57pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:1 Insightful]
People whose willful ignorance results in others' suffering must be held accountable on some level.
midden said @ 12:24am GMT on 16th Nov
Of course they should be held accountable, as should we all be for our actions, but that's a far cry from saying no one who voted for Trump can possibly be a good person.
tigsnort said @ 1:47am GMT on 16th Nov
Part of accountability is identifying the reason they're being held to account. I agree not all Trump voters are terrible people, but some (perhaps many) are inarguably racist.
midden said @ 2:12am GMT on 16th Nov [Score:2 Good]
Agreed. My point from the start was that blanket statements demonizing nearly half the population of the country based on their vote in one election are ludicrous. That's not to say some, or even perhaps many Trump voters are racist, but saying that anyone who voted for him can not be a good person is asinine.
foobar said @ 4:31am GMT on 16th Nov
It's only 20 something percent. I don't think it's that controversial to say that ~20% of Americans are deplorable.
midden said @ 4:55am GMT on 16th Nov
Yeah, I think that's probably not far off. But I do wonder how many would consider me deplorable.
cb361 said @ 9:54pm GMT on 15th Nov
I haven't read the article - I'm going to bed in a moment, but I assume the point of the article is that whatever other qualities a Trump voter has, at the very very best they overlooked his overtly racist policies or wrote it off as propaganda. I would say that yes, that doesn't necessarily nullify a person's other qualities, but it's still an enormous bruise.
Dalillama said @ 9:25pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:-4]
filtered comment under your threshold
midden said @ 9:44pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:1 Underrated]
You may find that real life and real people are more complicated than you imagine.
youchoose said[1] @ 10:52pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:0 Underrated]
-1 for the comment that clearly proves you're blatantly incapable of rational thought and assume that everyone is racist. Stop making generalizations about +-47% of the US population. -1 for the post because this type of vitriolic bs is all you post, its getting old.
kylemcbitch said @ 9:33pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:3]
Well this is exactly the sort of reasoned discourse that will lead to regaining the losses on the left. Thanks, Dali!
sanepride said @ 9:45pm GMT on 15th Nov
On the other hand, broad-brush anger and derision can be a pretty effective motivation for action. After all, it worked for Trump.
kylemcbitch said @ 9:51pm GMT on 15th Nov
Yeah, except we already had that and as you can see we can't win the electoral math with it.
sanepride said @ 9:58pm GMT on 15th Nov
Did we? If you're referring to the Sanders campaign, I wouldn't say it was really an angry one, certainly not the torches and pitchforks and sucker-punches of the Trump movement.
kylemcbitch said @ 10:10pm GMT on 15th Nov
No one believed Trump could win because Trump said racist and irresponsible things. That was blasted over and over again in social media and every left leaning outlet from New York to San Fran.

Yes. We had it. We can't win on that alone, and pretending we can is exactly how you get this sort of bullshit to repeat. Frankly, I am amazed you would deny this.
sanepride said @ 10:18pm GMT on 15th Nov
Well y'see, a week ago I would have totally, reflexively agreed with you. But frankly, given Trump's victory and how he attained it, I've gotta question all this now. Considering Trump's near total lack of constructive policy proposals and public service experience, he really did win on that alone. No question that this is tragic, and I'm really not advocating it as a strategy, just a sad observation really.
kylemcbitch said[1] @ 10:25pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:3 Underrated]
My point is that it's fine to make this observation, but fucking useless... and if we don't start moving away from ACTIVELY HARMFUL. These people did vote for a misogynistic, racist, irresponsible douchebag and what is more those that did it, know full well they did.

That mattered less to them than the need to change how business is done in Washington. One of the contributing factors to them not giving enough of a shit about these facts is because these facts have been used to try to push establishment candidates and to show how people on the left are unwilling to discuss the matter reasonably. The more we push this narrative the further we push them away.

What is more important to you right now, being right and feeling good, or being right and being able to win?

This is why I had hoped the Greens did better. I do not believe the average Democrat is even capable of this self-realization and every day I am being proven right.
sanepride said @ 11:01pm GMT on 15th Nov
No numbers to back this up, but I'd bet the 'average Democrat' is trying hard figure out all of the motivations of the average Trump voter, not simply dismissing them all as irredeemable racists and hatemongers.
kylemcbitch said @ 11:11pm GMT on 15th Nov
Well, if I had to go by SE and facebook? I'd say most people are in the "irredeemable racist and hatemongers" camp. At least, they have allowed those people to control the narrative, as you are suggesting I do right now with Dali.
sanepride said @ 11:16pm GMT on 15th Nov
You're misunderstanding my position. I don't agree with Dali, not by a longshot. But under the circumstances I can understand her resentment.
And based on the general modding trend on this post and previous mass-labeling of Trump voters, I wouldn't anecdotally say it's 'most people'.
arrowhen said @ 10:01pm GMT on 15th Nov
Angry mob tactics only work when there's an obvious outlet for the mob's anger. Without a witch to hunt, the best case scenario is the villagers just stand around looking confused, but what usually happens is they start using their torches and pitchforks on each other.
sanepride said @ 10:05pm GMT on 15th Nov
Seems to me that Dali at least has her witch to hunt here.
arrowhen said @ 9:13pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:1 Interesting]
If you were homeless and starving, would you accept free food from a racist?
rylex said @ 9:15pm GMT on 15th Nov
Nope. I would beat his racist ass and take it.
arrowhen said @ 9:19pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:1 Insightful]
What if it was 60 million racists?
rylex said @ 10:01pm GMT on 15th Nov
Organize them into a single file line. Give numbers. Take numbers slowly.

After all, a man can only eat so much in a day.
midden said @ 10:42pm GMT on 15th Nov
Reminds me of the Madonna blow job conversation.
XregnaR said @ 9:17pm GMT on 15th Nov
Do they all wear some kind of sign?
mechavolt said @ 10:59pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:2 Insightful]
You can tell the racists apart because they don't wear safety pins.
arrowhen said @ 9:23pm GMT on 15th Nov
Red trucker hats maybe?
XregnaR said @ 9:29pm GMT on 15th Nov
Too obvious. I think they should get pink triangle tattoos or something.
maximumtodd said @ 11:18pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:1 Insightful]
There were counties and states that went to Obama the last two elections that went to Trump this election. I find it hard to believe that they all became racist overnight.
LurkerAtTheGate said @ 3:30am GMT on 16th Nov
Dali and others seem to be giving voters an awful lot of credit -- thinking that people voted after doing research, following the campaigns, listening to debates, etc. I remember back in Bill's day, an astonishing number completely ignorant of the issues voted Clinton because he was handsome.

Some vote the party lines because they always have, without knowing a single candidate. Some are single issue, and they know which candidate said the sound-bite that placed them on that issue (I know a few of these -- educated, reasonable people who are anti-abortion and think it should be illegal with some exceptions). Shit, some treat it like a multiple choice test and fill the bubbles at random (I overheard one of these where I voted).

Besides -- which is the real Trump - the bigoted fascist, or the guy who cheerfully photo'd with LGBT groups and held up a rainbow flag? Dude loves attention. Doesn't care where he gets it, and will clearly say anything to get it. Was he lying when he said racist shit? Or lying when he said he'd defend gay marriage? I have little doubt he meant both, at the time. Fully unprepared guy now has to staff over 400 positions in a few months. He'll be handing the jobs out to damn near anyone -- campaign aides, racist buddies of a major contributor, republican party insiders...I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up with a number from across the aisle when he starts digging deep. I also wouldn't be surprised if we see a resignation when this job doesn't get him quite the attention he wants.
sanepride said @ 11:18pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:1 Interesting]
Maybe some perspective:

Why I voted for Trump

Last week, The Post invited readers to share why they voted for Donald Trump. We’ve received more than 1200 responses. Below are some of their answers. This collection will be updated regularly with more replies.
Menchi said @ 9:45pm GMT on 16th Nov [Score:1 Insightful]
Most of the responses there seem to reinforce the "ignorant/completely divorced from reality" angle, as best I can tell.
raphael_the_turtle said @ 8:42pm GMT on 15th Nov
eidolon said[1] @ 10:51pm GMT on 15th Nov
Commented wrong place. Ignore this.
HP Lovekraftwerk said[1] @ 8:48pm GMT on 15th Nov
It'll be interesting likely horrifying to see how far the attempt to make the Odal Rune a "mainstream" symbol for neo-nazis will go in the coming years.

At least New Balance has pissed off the racists by denying being the official shoes of white people. For those who haven't seen it, there's a list circulating among Trump supporters of companies to support (because they supported Trump) or boycott (because their owners decried Trump). Unsurprisingly, the alt-right has adopted this list in an attempt to claim allies for racist ideologies among these brands.
Bruceski said @ 9:46pm GMT on 15th Nov [Score:2 Underrated]
I'm not gonna boycott NB because they're the only ones I've found who make shoes wide enough for my feet while still being good support.
cakkafracle said @ 11:23pm GMT on 15th Nov
Totally this... I have flintstone feet, NB works
midden said @ 2:15am GMT on 16th Nov
Great minimal shoes, too, that provide almost no support, but protect my tootsies from sharp things and hot things and cold things.
eidolon said @ 10:55pm GMT on 15th Nov
but it is them who are the truly intolerant ones.

THEY. Dammit the correct word here is "they". I don't feel uncharitable calling this a movement that caters to the uneducated. People who used to be special because they were white and only because of that, who used that privilege as a crutch. They could always count on being better than half the country without even trying. Now that this is no longer true, they can't handle it. It's the same dynamic with MRAs and the advancement of women.
machpi said @ 9:18pm GMT on 15th Nov
Is this SE2's first Longhair?
sanepride said @ 9:23pm GMT on 15th Nov
I think it's more fair and accurate to say that there's no Trump voter who made a good decision, whatever their motivation may have been. I still believe that plenty, if not most Trump voters really felt some kind of desperation, that they really had no other choice. Obviously the decision, like most borne out of desperation, was emotional and not well-thought out.
But if you really believe the vast WWC who voted Trump are 'scum', you may get some satisfaction from the inevitable suffering and regret they'll likely experience as their hope and savior implements the standard GOP supply-side playbook, destroying safety nets, slashing taxes for the rich and corporations, gutting safety and environmental regulations, etc etc.
Dalillama said @ 9:30pm GMT on 15th Nov
I still believe that plenty, if not most Trump voters really felt some kind of desperation

Yes. They felt a desperate sense that their white privilege was going away. Trump voters are more affluent on average than Americans as a whole. Sure, plenty of poor whites voted for racism over their economic interest, but generally speaking, Trumpists are suffering a lot less from the economy than the rest of us. And yes, I will feel an incredible amount of shadenfreude when I hear about Trump voters losing their insurance, jobs, etc., but most of them will actually weather the fascist future as well as anyone will. And as someone who won't, I'm not going to cut them any slack for their cheerful support of outright evil.

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