“I don’t like this talk about ‘alt-right’, that’s an unnecessary abstraction. These are neofascists in contemporary garb.”

Their new leaders all wear suits and ties now. Trying hard to mainstream this garbage. Good call on the new political correct name for the same old Nazis.

Nice video. Did these people all swarm over to party-city beforehand to load up on 99-cent tiki-torches because none of them knew how to make them?

All I could think was "angriest white people Luau ever."

Remarkably free of mosquitoes, though.

i think it's that we live in an age where, as a klansman, its finally cheaper to buy a chinese made tiki torch than to rely on good ol' american made.

Now apparently someone drove a car into a counter-protest march. Oh this is gonna end well.

And you would be wrong.

Was just making a bet. My odds were good.

Not even the same car...wow these guys are fast with this shit.

The witness also said the vehicle had no licence plate and dark tinted windows.

One fatality so far today.

Trump's response: "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides," Trump said during a short statement from his private golf club in New Jersey. "It has been going on for a long time in our country -- not Donald Trump, not Barack Obama. It has been going on for a long, long time. It has no place in America."
The President did not mention white nationalists and the alt-right movement in his remarks, and later called for a "study" of the "situation."

What a fucking weasel.

Add 2 more - cops this time. Helicopter went down and killed both.

There's fault on both sides here. Trump took the middle ground to condemn it all.

There's a reason these alt-righters come with helmets and body armor. The violence started with antifa and escalated from there. Antifa's justification for starting the vicious cycle is that it's morally justified to "punch a Nazi" whoever you think is a Nazi.

Being a racist is rude and can bring civil litigation but it's not a crime.

As I recall, the violence started with an unprovoked attack on Poland.

Pretty sure everyone involved in that is dead.

I thought we'd all agreed that was as it should be.

Are we going to talk about arbitrarily saying people are a thing and then justifying action... or just make quips?

You lot are the worst of all Nazis. All the terrible without any of the pride. Don't play. We all know what you are.

How rude.

But that's how they were raised.

you're right. there was a reason they came armed and protected and it wasn't to protect themselves from possible aggression.

had that beem their motive, they wouldn't have attacked first. Also, I didn't see any antifa protesters at this event from the footage provided

Enough with the leftist crap, Trotsky.

Nazis,I hate these guys.

Huh - can someone translate this? To me it sounds like the same person who spent the last few years stoking this boiling venom to the surface and condoning it at every opportunity, just used it as an opportunity to slip in another campaign speech and stroke his own ego off in front of the world again.

OK there is no doubt that this was a terrorist attack. This was intentional murder.

NSFW

1 dead, 19 hurt in attack on anti-racist protesters caught on camera

Driver was James Alex Fields

The Dodge Challenger is registered to 20-year-old James Alex Fields of Ohio, according to vehicle registration records reviewed by The Washington Post. Albemarle-Charlottesville Regional Jail Superintendent Martin Kumer told The Post that a man with the same name and age was booked Saturday on suspicion of second-degree murder, malicious wounding, failure to stop for an accident involving a death, and hit and run. Kumer said Fields is currently being held without bail.

More about him

Tech reporter for The Hill​ Taylor Lorenz reports that police believe the suspect didn’t intentionally mow down protesters out of malice intent. Lorenz reports that authorities believe that the suspect acted out of fear as protesters swarmed the vehicle, some allegedly acting violent.

Fields is a member of "Vanguard America," neo-Nazi group part of "Nationalist Front" led by Matthew Heimbach

Here's a picture of him (second from left) marching with them at the rally, holding a shield with a fascio symbol on it.

There is no way you can see that video and not know this was intentional. This was more than reckless disregard.

Sounds like you have experience lynching

Gotta at least wait until you see if the driver had a bag of Skittles in his pocket first, right?

Exactly the opposite of my sarcasm.

bbq has tried and convicted someone he disagrees with.

Please... continue your dissembling and lying.

No lock him up will work until we put him in front of a jury but keep it mind Virginia is a death penalty state and terrorism is a mitigating cause...so probably not a noose but dead just the same.

If that's the verdict after a fair trial, so be it.

"didn’t intentionally mow down protesters out of malice intent. Lorenz reports that authorities believe that the suspect acted out of fear as protesters swarmed the vehicle"

Yea, maybe true about when he put it in reverse and hauled ass out of there. But video of the car driving into the crowd without even hitting the brakes? Seems pretty damning. But active investigation - i wouldn't expect anything real from the cops yet.

And so it seems ye who rushes to call someone wrong, is in fact wrong.

It's just one report. You don't know "in fact" that he is wrong.

Well it wasn't an anti Nazi killing people in a false flag operation that I'm still pretty sure of.

Either way it's really sad and why being a part of big angry crowds is a bad idea.

See That is what you are not seeing or at least not acknowledging. This was not just an angry crowd. This was an attempt to normalize into American politics the kind of hate and evil sickness that ravaged Europe and over 100,000 Americans died trying to end.

This was not just a political rally, this was a bunch of nuckeldragers who are in the process of trying to take over what I assume is your political party...I can only Imagine what Eisenhower would have to say about. I know my father who was a life ling Republican is turning over in his grave.

You're really taking this to an extreme. It wasn't really a political rally so much as it was a identitarian rally. You're not going to like it but it's the flip side of the black lives matter coin. Where BLM is aggrieved from police shootings this started from taking down Confederate statues.

this started from taking down Confederate statues

It was the Charlottesville City Council that voted to remove the statue, so the people of the town don't want it.

Also, see The Myth of the Kindly General Lee.

You're not going to get an argument out of me in support of slavery, the confederacy, or participants on that side. You can read Gen. Lee's own words (as I have) to see where he stood on the questions.

What you will get is my belief that if you take away the voice of aggrieved people, and drive them underground, you will end up with something much different than you bargained for.

Public protest is a safety valve.

Why you would suppose that the response of the Nazis (or the blacks) would be different than anyone else when you jam shit down their throat and silence them?

Just pointing out that your assumptions are wrong about local wishes and Lee.

Give me three concrete things, real things, that directly equate to "jam shit down their throat and silence them", and "take away the voice of aggrieved people, and drive them underground". Be specific and use your words. Don't just shout and pout.

The people in Charlottesville are in the midst of resolving the issue of whether to remove the statue or keep it (with those arguing to keep it saying it should have added pieces to document the uglier parts). Petitions and lawsuits, on both sides, are being resolved via normal, peaceful, legal channels.

And yet both protesters and counterprotesters are from out of state.

i never asked if racism was legal, I asked how was it civil. stop dodging the question, it makes you look weaker than you are.

indicentally, racism in practice has several laws against it. Hence why people can't be discriminated against in various situations, take for instance housing.


and for the record, I do defend people's right to say the ignorant shit they believe. I just think that right happens to come with the right for others to condemn you based upon the shit that comes out of your mouth.

That because it was extreme. The murder and mayhem at the end of it hid what was really going on here. This was the largest gathering of hate groups and paramilitary Militia groups since the 60's when they put up that statue of Lee in this first place.

Ya that statue is not a civil war memorial, it was put up in the 60's as a clear message to those uppity niggers who were marching in the streets and trying to get in our schools.

So no this did not start with talking down a "Confederate statue" it like that damn battle flag were both not of the civil war but the race war started in the 60's...silly me I thought both of those wars were over.

I like the president you either have to denounce the shit that took place this week or you have to be considered part of it. The Nazis are becoming party of the Republican party you are either for or against that.

Funny, "you're with us, or you're with the terrorists" was met with collective eyeroll when Bush said it year ago.

Is it the extreme act of an individual or something indicative of the entire ideology?

Did you miss the whole point of my argument. This was a meeting of the most extreme elements of right wing America. The fuckwit with the car was just the cherry on top. This most definitely indicative of the entire ideology. and like cancer you have to excise before it kills you. But from your lack of denouement I presume you endorse it.

"They can call themselves anything they want, they can even call themselves Republicans, but Republicans should not"

Time for you to define yourself I have no problem talking with a conservative but FUCK A NAZI

It didn't start from taking down Confederate Statues, that's just the excuse the white supremacists are using for legitimacy and recruiting. If it would've gotten them the same kind of sympathy, they would be just as happy protesting at a random Jewish Community Center as they have many times before.

I think you and everyone is conflating a bunch of opinions into one, multi-hypenated named group.

As someone that grew up in the South; Southerners have very little anti-Semitism. All that comes from the Venn Diagram of other groups.

We just want our history preserved and not threatened by the political correctness of The Current Year.

So then all those KKK guys rallying every few years at the JCC down the street from me were mistaken. How embarrassing for them. A shame they didn't have you down there to straighten them out.

Really, steele, you want to endorse this sort of Nazi apologism?

I'm not a babysitter. Quit arguing with them and moderate the damn site like I've been yelling about for years. That's what the mods are there for.

You're starting to sound like Matt.

The moderation tool has a use. It helps the community cut the signal to noise ratio. If there are people who are just arguing in bad faith, basically wanking, then perhaps mod and move on. You're not going to get any information or insight from certain conversations. Sometimes its just one person indulging in a guilty pleasure. If that's what they're only about, then they end up with rather very low karma.

I absolutely agree. The site has actually become unbearable in some respects.

There was a turning point of old SE where MAtt was basically just done. I remember a point where he basically said wtf are you people even still doing here. Steele seems to be very frustrated in some of the same respects that Matt seemed to speak out about if i recall correctly. Not a bad thing necessarily, just saw a correlation.

Correct, I am the admin and I have been telling people to moderate.

Moderation of ideas only goes one way here

Not from my point of view. I don't even agree with many of the people you manage to argue with.

call your stormfront friends to come over and upmod ya'll then

Hey it isn't steele. Like he said the mod system works. And even if it was I would certainly hope he would allow just about any point of view. If you cloister your self off from views outside your bubble you need to stay on Facebook.

So there are no unacceptable views to you?

Sure there are... to me. But I don't get to say what is unacceptable to the comunitee. And everybody has the right to make an ass out of themselves.

There are no unacceptable views, only unacceptable actions.

Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?

Tumescent priest?

That's a juicebox post.

so if i'm reading you correctly, free speech = violence?


in your opinion, how is charlottesville different than berkeley?

Nice try.

Free speech should be protected.

In both Berkley and Charlottesville the police did not stop the anti-fas.

the police didn't stop the fascists in Charlottesville you mean.

I seem to remember the police attempting to stop rioters in Berkeley.

So i reinvite you to discourse as to your views on both of these events. Unless you are too ignorant to formulate your own and merely parrot back the idealogies spewed forth on stormfront and breitbart, which seems to be the case

I'll ignore the condescension of your remarks and refer you to your beloved Huffington Post
Police Stood By As Mayhem Mounted in Charlottesville

I invite you to read up on Robert Creamer, husband of Rep. Jan Schakowsky, who (with hundreds of visits to Obama's White House, and many meetings with Obama himself) coordinated the Bernie Sanders anti-fas' head-stomping which succeeded in shutting down Trump rallies in Chicago.

I invite you to do your own googling to explain why Conservative speakers are shut down on college campuses.

The facts aren't on your side.

+1 if I could.

He's not going to see any error in his perspective. Everyone is pretty polarized on this. You could present mountains of evidence and the basis of interpretation is going to be his moral stance.

If these keyboard warriors are not willing to stand up against the anti-fa's in support of the Nazis (or anyone else's) Constitutional rights, then they're nothing but very dangerous (because they have no moral center) partisan hypocrites. Amazingly, this thread is a powerful indictment of their entire worldview– and they're too blind to see it.

The problem with that is who gets to define hate speech. How quickly that could go from just being about hate speech against people to a negative review of a company becoming hate speech.

That's no more a problem than who gets to define "murder."

I don't think the line is quite as clear here. We haven't even been able to figure out how to successfully apply hate crime status to violent crimes much less speech.

"+1 if I could"

Why can't you?

I'm guessing his karma score is too low, so that his modding rights have ended.

Hmm, I didn't even know that was a thing.

I believe it has been since the good ol' SE, although I could be wrong. Matt probably put that in place to prevent mass downmods from trolls like Bosco and the likes.

*wipes a melancholic tear away*

It's a sensible rule, I suppose. I guess I've just never seen anyone complain about it before; it's usually just screaming incoherent insane people who manage to make it down in the the negative karma scores.

Or general conservatives that just came back in the last week like me.

Yea, it's a thing.

Go make a bunch of non-political, non-douchebag comments and I'll upmod them all out of principle. You deserve a voice here as much as anyone else.

I've been trying to enter new accounts into a path that rewards productive activity with more responsibility. It's going to go commenting rights to mod rights to post rights with (some temporary) suspensions happening as their karma score drops or a certain amount of dowmods within a limited time. It's still not completely ready, but it's what I'm working towards. Ideally, I would have done this from the start of the site, but because of the improvisational nature it was born under I had to start those first few months off with everyone getting a free pass while I came up with methods that would get the post numbers up.

It's going to go commenting rights to mod rights to post rights with (some temporary) suspensions happening as their karma score drops or a certain amount of dowmods within a limited time.

I might be reading this wrong, but it sound like you're saying that if someone gets enough downmods they won't be able to comment anymore?

That has been active since long times. Wasn't that what shut the a Friend account a few times?

The a friend couldn't post when their karma was in the negatives, but they could still comment. If they couldn't, how would they ever earn the karma they needed to post again?

There's a built in karma regeneration for accounts under 0.

Hmmm. I'm probably mixing up some things here, but I thought it's been around for long, and only active once you hit -10. Could be posting as you said, it's been a long day :P

Hmm, maybe you're right about the -10 thing. I do remember certain accounts being on a cycle where once their karma got too low for them to post anymore they'd start fishing for upmods with innocuous comments until they had enough points to start trolling again.

Temporarily. There's already a cooling off period built into the code I disabled a while back that would disable comment rights once they hit a negative point in their karma, forcing them to wait until their karma regenerated back zero. I'll probably bring that live again and experiment between a cooling off period and weighting the new comments down similar to how one inherits a downmod.

So numbers is right, downmods are censorship.

Fuck that noise.

No, it's the equivalent of taking a toddler and putting them in the corner for a few minutes until they're over their tantrum. It's a crowdsourced moderation system. It's so that dumbasses can't sit there and drop the n word twenty comments in a row. Or start fights just because they get off on the reaction. I can't sit here and babysit the site forever. Where do you want this site to go? Do you want it to grow or do you just want it to be a trainwreck of angry political argument porn that doesn't ever go anywhere? Because if y'all keep feeding the trolls all it's ever going to be is the latter.

Five downmods already put the toddlers in the "filtered comment under your threshold" corner. But at least then anyone who's interested can wander over to that corner to see what they're screaming about.

Human nature being what it is, though, if you give the crowd the power to not just bury comments behind an extra mouse click but actually prevent people from commenting, that power will be used to stifle minority voices and punish people for having unpopular opinions.

Are you really OK with that?

Are you really grouping fascists in with "minority voices?"

On this site? Sure.

It doesn't matter if it's a conservative in a liberal crowd, a linux user in a Windows crowd, or a neapolitan lover in a rocky road crowd, if the majority has too much power people whose opinions differ from theirs are gonna have a bad time, because crowds are kind of dicks.

Stop calling them conservatives. They're trying to normalize fascism, don't help them.

I didn't call them conservatives, unless you think I also called them linux users or neapolitan ice cream eaters.

Then you're making a false equivalence.

Fascism isn't fucking Voldemort; it's OK to mention its name out loud. It's even OK to (shudder! gasp!) believe in it, if you don't mind having shitty opinions. If it's not OK to censor people for liking the wrong flavor of ice cream, it's not OK to censor them for liking the wrong system of government.

It is ok to censor them for hate speech, though, or at least that's what the developed world has decided.

Well that's the balance I'm trying to straddle with very little help from the peanut gallery, arrowhen. It's not like I've been quiet about the need for increased use of the mod system these past years. You're offering to take it on yourself to give posting rights, a system that I'm trying to mirror on various social networks, to a guy that has done nothing to deserve them. At what point am I allowed to throw my hands in the air here?

You're offering to take it on yourself to give posting rights, a system that I'm trying to mirror on various social networks, to a guy that has done nothing to deserve them.

I'm offering to use the mod system (you know, the one you think we should use more) to help someone I disagree with gain the same freedom to contribute to the community that I enjoy.

Norok has shown, both on the old site and in some of his comments in this very thread, that, unlike numbers and friends, he has the ability to articulate conservative opinions in a reasonable, productive manner. That's something I think this community desperately needs. Of course, he's also shown that he's sometimes willing to express his opinions in a less than reasonable, productive manner, but we have tools to deal with that, too, if the situation arises.

Call me a liberal, but I'd rather err on the side of diversity and inclusion.

So you're going to abuse the the mod system in an opposite manner than you were just complaining about. And I disagree and I'll also use the mod system to express that. This site keeps thinking Right Lite is Left and the last thing we should be encouraging is more arguing over the legitimacy of economic and political ideals we are living in the failure of. Do we really need right wing neoliberal talking points in addition to the left neoliberal talking points we're already arguing? Is that the only balance we're going to get around here? It's a sorry state that the Right has a better understanding of the Overton Window and how to leverage it. Because let me tell you, this shit isn't going to be anymore sustainable here than it was on the old site. And once again I'm going to be yelling into the wind while y'all give me lectures on how this shit is "supposed" to work.

"Do we really need right wing neoliberal talking points in addition to the left neoliberal talking points we're already arguing?"

Why not? Arguing politics on the intermet is just a useless symbolic gesture that lets us powerless schmucks feel better about ourselves by spouting our chosen positions. You're never going to talk a neoliberal into changing their mind, and more than they're ever going to do the same to you. A conservative isn't going to have any better luck, so what harm is there in letting them in on the fun?

The real action is when everyone's done spamming their talking points and in another thread start cracking jokes or drooling over tits or whatever and start realizing that those people with those awful political opinions that they'll never agree with are actual human beings.

Again, the Overton Window. You want this site to be nothing more than the same tired arguments, fine, but my patience for this bullshit is wearing thin. The old SE was nothing more than a shell of its former self by the time it died, why you want to resurrect the death spiral by trying to remake that environment I've no fucking clue.

Old SE was nothing more than a shell of its former self by the time it died because the entire fucking internet was nothing more than a shell of its former self by then. The old-school, Eris-approved Wild West internet had its back broken by a decade and a half of Eternal September and the inescapable money-driven rise of the social media filter bubble.

Old SE held out longer than most, largely because it wasn't important enough to be absorbed into the Borg collective, but as more and more of us grew old and weak and retreated to the safety of the fake-ass friends-and-family curated pseudo-internet experience that Facebook provides and younger users never even got the chance to learn how much they stood to benefit from the limitless potential for freedom and conflict that the original internet had to offer, it was utterly inevitable that the old community would begin to decline.

It sure as fuck didn't happen because we allowed those naughty conservatives to say their piece.

Again, stop calling them conservatives.

i was pretty sure SE died because of the rise of reddit. but i could be wrong

I did a scrape of the site's comments at the 2 million mark. SE began drastically shedding activity the year Marck picked it up. There was one, may be two years, in which it saw any growth in comment numbers and those were election years. Every other year its comment numbers dropped by the tens of thousands. Reddit may have been a factor, but to the people I talked to, and for myself, it was because it was becoming impossible to have an opinion without things turning into an argument. While searching for SE users on reddit after the crash, I found a comment that described the site as such, "where snark was king and if you couldn't hold your own in a flame war, you were shamed and left to die." I thought that was pretty apt.

Right, the people leaving because they were tired of the endless fighting were only saying that to feel better about themselves. Seriously, dude. You're arguing with me because I think posting rights should be earned by, not handed to, somebody that couldn't keep from being a disruptive force on a website he just found out existed two weeks ago.

I'm all for filtering out trolling but there has to be some way to let conservative non-sock puppets post.

Posting is a privilege. It's like handing a person a microphone and leading them onto the site's stage to address everyone. Your activity your first few days here have undermined most arguments you could make to sway my opinion on the subject. You disappeared for a few years and within your first few days you jumped right back into your old role without any regard for how the site or world had grown since you left. Your first profile was to call the site shitlib, you upmodded the hitler youth speech, dropped an offtopic rant on late stage socialism that nobody asked for, and upmodded numbers, the guy who will take any stance that will make him a pariah. If you're looking to me for sympathy of why I should just hand you something, you're barking up the wrong tree. You've not offered me any reason to think that magnifying your viewpoints would be a positive addition to the site. And that's the point of moderation that so many people here seem to miss, it's to shape the site and the direction it should take going forward.

This thread is a classic example of right wing manipulation. And everybody fell for it hook line and sinker, and fed the trolls what they want : legitimacy. Most here wanted to have a discussion about the racist influence - something that truly exists, but the usual bobble heads provide false equivalencies and completely derail the thread. And it was emphasized by the bigoted idiot in chief. This is about a white supremacist mowing down peaceful protesters. No debate there.

Logical fallacies, red herrings, double standards; revisionist history, generalizations, hyperbole/ poor use of sophism/ projection of ideological failures. And we all accept it as though it were desirable and normal.

That's how some want it painted. Note the tragedy happened the day after the actual protests. Now it can be compartmentalized into a nice good/evil dichotomy with no one bothering to learn anything.

Shape the site? Into what?

Preferably something better than the other sites already offering outdated political argument porn.

If you're actually a conservative, and not a fascist, you'll have no problem condemning these people, and fear nothing from antifas.

facts arent on your side you mean..

the link you provided validated what I said, that the fascists started the violence in charlottesville and the police did nothing to stop it initially.

And yet again, can you show any evidence of specifically planned and executed attacks by antifa? No, thats right you cant. Because the antifa protestors have not been organized enough to come up with a coordinated and specific plan of attack. It has been a group of people coming together to disrupt in an unorganized fashion.

i realize I am playing semantics here, but it is an important distinction to make.

all i am asking for, is evidence of coordinated tactics on the field.

I am agreeing with you that there are protestors specifically organizing for violent means. what I am getting at is the difference between guerilla warfare and militarized strategy being utilized by said protest groups.

and what I am saying is this; there is a big difference between arranging for a group of angry, like-minded people to gather and sow discord than to arrange for a group of angry, like-minded people to gather and smite one's enemies.

its the nuance of the difference in tactics being used.

Another attempt at false equivalency? Sorry that won't work for you or our orange face president...The left doesn't not welcome Nazis and the KKK and their ilk.

They deserve same protection and they go it

Go read the Charlottesville PD twitter feed. Their position was that they would stand aside until ordered to intervene. When the anti-fas attacked, it was too late.

I am sick of you making that lie. Pictures or STFU

In a press conference, the Charlottesville Police Chief, Al Thomas, said the crash was premeditated.

http://heavy.com/news/2017/08/james-alex-fields-jr-charlottesville-suspect-arrested-driver-crashed-rally-republican-age-bio-video/

Not 100% sure about this but seems legit.


moment of impact shows face

In the tikki torch shot, if you look really closely, you can see a woman.

The story in pictures (25)

And video


Look At What’s Happening In America In 2017
The Charlottesville rally is just another example of the deep-rooted, bone-chilling hatred in this country.

And if anybody is still doubting who James Fields really is. here is a picture of him brandished shield for Vanguard America hate group before attack

an organized group of protestors kettling counter protestors and assailing them is quite different than a few unorganized people sowing discord.

so take your strawman and burn it.

as i recall there was some uproar from your first scenario, brought by your like minded comrades.

Unorganized?? antifa is absolutely coordinated, down to showing up in matching uniform, they even talk about what weapons to bring online, and change out their masks/all black uniforms in alleyways together.

can you show me evidence of coordination in their attacks?

aka having a specific attack plan

https://www.njhomelandsecurity.gov/analysis/anarchist-extremists-antifa?rq=antifa

yes, that is evidence they are violent. i agree.

now would you show some actual evidence of coordinated attacks by them?

http://archive.is/UuYl5

this still isnt evidence. heres a +1 though for thread participation in a cogent manner


coordinated physical attacks. evidence. please?

the tactics indicated by my link are not what just happens at random during a fracas. it is indication of clear, thought out, planned and executed attack. I stand by this statement

organizing a group of people to bring violence into protest is a little bit different than coordinating an attack with others which utilizes a specific attack plan.

this is the point I am trying to make. Let me know if you need me to spell it out for you in more monosyllabic words.

Despite your condescension, the facts betray you.

The leadership of the anti-fa Sons of Soros can be (and probably will be) charged with conspiracy to incite riot(s). They came ready to fight (ie. suppress the Constitional rights of others).

The facts are not on your side.

Hey dipshit.

It's over at Mother Jones too.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/08/police-stood-by-as-mayhem-mounted-in-charlottesville/

You're so caught up in your purity-tests that you can't even see how blind you are.

Yeah, they're organized. Had quite a lot going on, where was that, Nuremberg?