Primo Levi, who survived Auschwitz, wrote that one of the questions he kept getting asked after he returned was "why didn't you just leave before?" And his response was "Before what? We couldn't see the future. What was the point at which we should have known? By the time it was clear, it was too late."

Plus, there was the orchestra, the soccer league, the swimming pool...

I've been going to 4chan since 2007, and I've been reading /pol/ for years. I know a lot of you know this place very well, too. Not because I believe or agree or shitpost, but because I've been insanely curious in what looks like a cultural train wreck. I've been trying to understand these people for years. I've been fascinated how this culture has grown. I noticed twoish years ago a huge uptick in participation and growth (perhaps because Stormfront and others start congregating there some time ago). I also know that the people who go to /pol/ are also Breitbart readers and consumers. Before Steve Bannon was even a name people knew, I remember the comments on that site. I didn't see a difference between the animosity and language of that site and 4chan.

As a bunch of minorities, I'm afraid for me and my family. I feel like a full on conspiracy theory nut. I feel like I must be crazy. Like...I'm the only one who sees that this represents not just a repeal of some random politician's policy, but a return to a hundred years ago. No, something new and worse. Steve Bannon represents the destruction of American unity. He is the destroyer.

If he isn't stamped out politically in the next 24 hours, this country will have brought out the new real white and racial nationalism that will destroy us. This is the new social HIV of our time. Godwin's law be damned, this might come full circle now.

Breathe into a bag or something. I'm slightly more Mexican/feather Indian than I am European according to 23andme, and have the typical mix of black, hispanic, LGBT, what have you family members that fucking EVERYONE in the south has these days. And yet, I voted for Trump.

I can even empathize with your being upset; I felt the same way in 2000 when Bush took power under far more questionabe circumstances.I'm even glad to hear that you and the wife are doing well. But if you can't understand that the appeal of /pol/ is the purity spiral, or in reddit terms, the circlejerk, and adjust to the real world accordingly, you're not as wise as you like to think.

And if there is to be a race war initiated by a right-wing tabloid website, I'm going to be on the opposite side of that. But I'm pretty sure you're overestimating their reach. So don't walk around a busy street pointing what looks like a real gun at people like Tamir Rice did, and you'll probably be okay.

I appreciate you saying that. That helps.

In certain ways it has become too easy to see these (for lack of a better word unfortunately) crappy parts of our society and it can be easy to overestimate. I mean, I go to all kinds of normal conservative, liberal, and etc websites and my family is half Trump supporters themselves, but I doubt they even know the underbelly like /pol/ (and others) like I do.

I am so sorry. I'm worried about our country and a lot of my friends.

"Steve Bannon represents the destruction of American unity. He is the destroyer."

I thought that was Conan, but either way aren't you being a little over-dramatic here?

I can't I say I spend any time looking at 4chan, Breitbart, or any of that stuff. I can make an approximate-enough guess. Obama's team managed to harness the progressive internet, Bannon figured out how to harness the regressive internet. He's a latter day Karl Rove, no more no less.

i'm sorry, it is awful and frightening.
keep in mind that a lot of people, more than half of those who voted, voted against this shit. if we can keep our wits about us, we can push back effectively. and many republican politicians also arent wiling to let the party go down the road of flaming white nationalism.
come to new england?
dont go to 4chan!

Actually universal health care, paid vacation and guaranteed retirement benefits sound pretty good.

This looks like the same setup as the campaine.

Reince Priebus was named Trump's chief of staff. and then invent a position for Bannon......Consiliari seems like a more apt title.

Tom Hadyen

Looks like Bannon will be Chief Strategist and Senior Counsel, a horrifyingly close position for such a douchebag extremist. I'd say some alarm is warranted. Panic, maybe not just yet.

On the plus side, we'll finally get to the bottom of Jade Helm! I wonder if we'll have to re-invade Texas, or at least retake that closed Wal-Mart store?

I hear you, but understand that the people who are riding on his coattails believe in destroying all those who are not white. I found out yesterday that a person who I went to college with was one of these people - he admitted it on Facebook. He literally said "Yes, I am racist and xenophobic." He's highly educated. He said it after Trump's win. He argued that in order for the country to be safe, a country has to be homogeneous - the same. It can't have racial diversity in it.

He's young. He's smart. And he's inspired by Trump. Many people are inspired by Trump right now. This is a deadly, deadly disease in our country.

Bannon has purportedly said numerous times he wants to spread nationalism throughout Europe. And btw, isn't natiionalism spreading throughout Europe right now? If someone is very knowledge about this, please speak up.

Does anybody here honestly believe that we have progressed so much as a species to not FUCK THIS UP ROYALLY? People like me and my family are the perfect representation and target for their hate. How do I know? I GO TO A CENTRAL PLACE OF WHITE NATIONALISM. I'VE BEEN GOING FOR YEARS. People like me and my wife (multicultural minorities) are the picture perfect target. Highly educated. Doing well. Representation of "liberal multiculturalism."

Has anybody here seen The Big Short? Sometimes people incidentally get some knowledge that winds up being huge.

http://wjla.com/news/local/montgomery-county-church-vandalized-with-racist-pro-trump-writing

Did this happen by legitimate racists, or by some liberal who is trying to send a message that we are living in Trump's America? If it is the former, we fucked it up this time. (If the latter, it is a terrible, horrible misguided attempt at persuasion or something. It is literally causing panic everywhere.)

I feel you. Both sides of my family has jewish origins though we haven't practiced in generations. We have the horror stories. It hard not to feel a bit of panic at all this, but my best advice to give is to first keep calm. Take a look at the numbers. Most of us did not vote for this. This is still a land where people like you can find a friend and safe harbor. If no one else will, I will. That how I was raised. I can't imagine I am alone in that regard.

As for Nationalism (of all stripes) spreading in Europe, yes. I can discuss it with you. I would not call myself an expert but I have called that by other people. To understand what is happening, we have to to understand this the context what gives rise to it. A racial reactionary is not born overnight, they are formed from a life time of disappointed with the established way of doing thing and the opportunity to change them (real or imagined.)

First lets get one thing clear, we have to separate the terms nationalism, white nationalism, national socialism, and socialism. They are in fact widely different things (well, not white nationalism, national socialism.)

Nationalism is a problem, since it can blind people to horrors their country inflicts on itself and others. However, Nationalism is not the problem here. If it were, Trump would not be President. American Nationalism is built exceptionalism and inclusion, though those terms seem opposed. That is to say, an American Nationalist is simply a man, woman, or whatever proud of their country regardless of what it does. That pride includes our struggle against racism. They are not the ones responsible for this. They would not vote for a man who's platform was to "Make America Great Again!" To them, it was already great. As far as this sort of nationalism goes in Europe, it's sort of rare but exist. It is also, for the most part harmless except for how it used to gloss over things that should not be.

White Nationalism, is another beast. This stems from the belief that white people are a nation-in-of-themselves and that the Nationalism spoken of here is gears towards the supremacy of that Nation over all others. This is not unique to white people, and is not considered bad for certain minorities (as it's a means of mutual support in face of adversity, though when they include supremacist people tend to think they are bad.) The issue with White Nationalism is that it's usually only present in majority white countries and the adversities they face are largely made up. But they typical White Nationalist has a few common features:

An impoverished background.

An absent but needed authority figure (or an authority figure already indoctrinated.)

Troubled contact with minorities. This could be economic, such as having lost a job to neo-liberalism (and their work going to places with brown skinned people), criminal, such as being the victim or knowing the victim of a crime carried out by a non-white person, or in the worse case scenario having been completely unexposed to non-white people except through the rhetoric of other white nationalist.

The need for a structured world. This need is filled by strong authoritarians and conspiracy theory. The first for obvious reasons, and the second because it takes the edge off the anxiety of the world if you believe that bad things do not just happen, they have a causative agent and you can stand against it.

The belief that society owes them (and by extension their entire race) a debt due to their perceived supremacy and their perceived derogation.

National Socialism (literal Nazis) are much of what was just described above but with added features. Those being pseudo-scientific beliefs about race, a falsely fostered sense of intellectualism (pseudo-intellectualism), and a masterful ability to adjust with the times. It might seem odd that people who worship a racist cult of personality from the 40's might have this, but it's there. Nazi hipsters are thing. /pol/ is a thing. Propaganda is highly important to them, and propaganda only works if the argument given is simple enough to be understood by an idiot without being so simple as to insult the intelligence of their perspective readers.

Then finally, socialism, which often gets lumped in with the Nazis due to the fact it's in the name. The party was first formed with the SA, young paramilitarist who felt Germany needed to be Germanic and that society needed to adapt itself towards building a sort of utopian ideal. They were largely out of work young people, and promises of aid quickly brought them into the fold. However, it's a mistake to tie the two together, since the Socialism part of the was just to win them to the cause and was largely abandoned for corporatism. There were certainly socialist policies, but they were cynically geared towards private interest than public good.

So, now that we are clear on what we are discussing... obviously you mean White Nationalism and Nazis. The first thing you should know is that every country in Europe (and those where colonial history ties them to Europe) has some form of this. Most notably are going to be the UK (British Nationalist Party) and The Golden Dawn in Greece. Both of these serve as excellent case studies. Both gained support due to similar factors. Severe economic downturn mixed with liberal immigration to their respective nations. The UK owing that to the Empire, and Greece owing theirs to access to the Mediterranean and it's being a stepping stone from the Middle East to the Western World.

White nationalism also gained serious ground in Russia, though there is significant push back. It should be remembered that Slavs are not considered white by Nazis, and to Russia and the old Eastern Bloc even all these years after still don't easily forget 5 million people murdered for psuedo-scientific bullshit about their ancestry.

The other, more murky issues are the Euro-sceptical parties. They tend to be Nationalist and anti-immigration but it is a mistake to tie them to White Nationalist and Nazis. Those latter groups will support Euro-sceptial parties because they bring some of their views into the mainstream of society in a somewhat acceptable way. That should be viewed as a bug, not a feature. Once you assume "Euro-sceptic" = "white nationalist" you lose the ability to reason with them. This will give you Brexit, and in the US... gives you Trump. That should be avoided, clearly.

I recommend if you plan to move, that you move somewhere with a history of Republicanism (Venice, Ireland...), a history of Nazi occupation/resistance (France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Baltic states, Scandinavian states), or an embarrassed association with imperialism. Keep in mind that anywhere you go these people can be found, and anywhere you go in Europe, there will be a Euro-sceptical Nationalist front. It's unavoidable.

Most of us did not vote for this.

Hitler never got more than 43.9% of the vote. Trump got more than that, didn't he? It doesn't take a majority.

Aye, Hitler got into power at around 30~ percent if my memory serves (can't check link, on phone.) That said, there is significant enough difference that I am not yet having kittens (I am pretty close, however.)

I think it's important to let each other know we have their backs, (the safety pin thing is a good idea, regardless of how many people want to say it's just white people just trying to feel better with useless pageantry.) I still believe Americans are mostly good people, and just give us some time to sort our feelings out on this.

Get back to me when Trump takes office in earnest. For now, wait and see is better than full blown panic.

It seems to me that the possible downsides of wait and see far outweigh those of full blown panic. The world would probably be a better place today if Germans had lost their shit in 1932.

Plenty of them did, foobar. One of the big differences here is that there are not paramilitary militias given full rights to clear the streets. (Check out the SA/Brown shirts of the early rise to power.)

There have been some riots, and riot police responding but nothing like non-law enforcement forces enforcing a peace only when it suits their party and actively causing riots and brawls when it doesn't.

Right now, we are seeing mass demonstrations and deplorable assholes doing racist shit. That is to be expected (though the latter should not be condoned.)

There is enough of a difference here that wait and see isn't a bad call. There is a difference between emboldening massive amounts of bigots and empowering them.

Hitler lost the election of 1932, by a sizable margin. He got into power when the detached, addled President Hindenburg appointed him Chancellor as a political compromise, paving away for his succession when Hindenburg died in 1934.

Yeah, I am aware. I am in fact pointing out that he won 30~ percent of the vote in the last actually free election of Germany. The subsequent election should not be counted since it was rife with intimidation and violence.

His ascension to power was built in a back room, and supported by an army of private thugs. We've got 1 of those now (thanks, Electoral College.) I am not saying there isn't cause for concern. His rhetoric alone is a fair comparison to Hitler. I just do not believe he has the the ability to shut down descent, and if he tried we'd shut him down.

Ha. I think you mean dissent, descent is exactly what Trump will precipitate.

Leaving that typo now for comedic effect, but yes sir, that is what I meant.

to make things more ugly: a friend of mine who is a recovering xtian evangelical says that pence smells like a dominionist.... christian dominionist or some shit... anyway, they believe that america should be a xtian nation.

i dont think any of these people have looked at the constitution.

Thanks for that breakdown. This is going to help me be a little more precise when I'm talking about these factions. It also helps just to have another human being respond and empathize with these fears. I hope American citizens, both Trump and Clinton voters even, can start empathizing with each other more moving forward.

My wife is Jewish, actually. Her parents pumped her full of holocaust books when she was a child and that's why she's been more than a little concerned. We both kind of independently came to our panic (I with my intimate knowledge of being on racist websites daily that digitally lynch minorities and women for shits and giggles all the time and her with tons of historical precedents of terrible racial prejudice in the 20th century) but then it ratcheted it up once we started speculating together how this kind of thing can play out. We've talked to our families about this since I posted here and they agree that this is particularly and uniquely concerning, and that we should remain vigilante moving forward, but that we should trust more in other people at this time to see the same thing and fight. They encouraged us to get involved locally and find like-minded individuals.

I think that's the best we can do for now.

Obviously I can't put myself in your shoes but I totally understand your trepidation.
I'd suggest you and your families keep current passports and be flexible. There is a rising tide of nationalism in parts of Europe now, hard to know how bad it'll get, but for the most part the EU is still very appealing. If I had to make a quick getaway I'd consider Ireland. Weather's not great, but it's an English-speaking, largely friendly and tolerant population, full EU benefits. If English isn't a big priority I'd look at Spain and Portugal. Nicer weather, cheaper living, great food.

I'm with sane pride. Try Portugal.

So when we all make our escapes to progressive social democracies who you gonna troll?

I would be pithy like "Canada is nice this time of year" but we both know that's a lie. Lisbon is beautiful, though. The southern coast of France as well. Of all the places I've been in the world though, if I had to pick a place to just fuck off for a few years on my current not-so-great retirement income, it would be Laos. Mostly because everything is so goddamn cheap that you could easily stretch 20-30k USD over a year with a family.

Ofc it helps when you can speak the native language, so maybe Canada after all. Cheaper to drive than fly, and plenty of unsecured borders.

1234, what are you defending? Tell me, what does all this mean to you? What is your take? I'm not here to demonize you - tell me your stance.

His stance is here to be a fuckstick, trump supporting troll.

He has no true stance other than brown skin bad and internet anonymity good.

Have you seen your karma lately? The people have spoken!

I feel like that would have a bit more punch had Trump not lost the actual popular vote.

vox half the populi vox dei at any rate

seems like each half makes the other half incensed..

LOL, why are people surprised? Drumps cabinet is going to be a circus of freaks. A page out of Idiocracy.

The selection of both Bannon and Reince Priebus is pretty telling. It'll be a mix of freaks and GOP establishment elites- exactly the sort Trump voters sought to reject.
Gonna see a lot of buyer's remorse in the coming months.

Nah, I don't think we'll see too much buyer's remorse...

Most of those people aren't capable of the type of higher thought processes that would require.

+1 ominous

There was plenty of anger, consternation, and trepidation when Bush II was declared President but this is really the first time there's been something like real fear at the prospect of a president-elect. There's a lot of unknown, and what is known is pretty ominous.

Ain't nothing wrong with leaving the country for a few years but do keep in mind you might get double taxed but really there are assholes everywhere- but travel is always nice.

It will certainly make the years more memorable. Keep in mind that the president and adminsistration still have to abide by certain rules and restrictions and it's entirely possible that trump is much more liberal than he appears and/or that there will be constant infighting within the Republican Party. That aside I don't really have my hopes up- but we'll see. But between you and me I think he's going to get eight years and I think it will be good for the world as america's role and prestige continue to decline.