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Monday, 19 February 2018
quote [ As part of my UrbanAMA journey, I’ve worked with many young women in high school and college, encouraging them towards pursuing computer science and getting a tech degree. Many of them have opened up about the hostile environments they face even in progressive schools such as UC Berkeley and have thanked me for the support and encouragement. Now that is where we must bring change.
If we increase the inflow of women into tech education, we will automatically increase diversity in hiring. ] She's a better writer than I am...
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donnie said @ 11:57pm GMT on 19th February
Well, X and Y here are both failing. This entire discussion stems from the supposition that all gender imbalances in all fields of employment are the result of malice, oppression, shaming, other hostile or coercive forces, or otherwise some other cultural failing that is discouraging the participation of one gender or the other.
The counterargument here is simply to consider that, once all of that shit is eliminated, it still might not be the expected outcome that an exact 50% split results - and that there might not be anything wrong with that at all. What if we produce an idyllic, utopian, free and completely liberal society where, unencumbered, we find that we still end up with a few more men laying concrete and collecting trash, and a few more women providing translation services and helping children with speech disabilities? Is that terrible? Are we somehow a broken species for it? Why is it so repulsive to think that men and women might have some small degree of complementary skills bias that has baked into our evolution over millions of years?
You ask what we're supposed to do with such information - the point is to focus on what the real problems are. Is there harassment? Fine - put an end to it. Is there a toxic work environment? Fine - fix it, fire the assholes, be relentless and stamp out the real problem.
Are girls being discouraged - by society, by their peers, by parents, by media and marketing - are they being discouraged from entering certain occupations? Are men being shamed out of others as well? Is there teasing and bullying that is stopping Steve from being a dancer and Amy from being a hacker? Fine - put an end to it. Are poor neighbourhoods not getting the education and support they need to produce quality employees? Fine - fix it; fund the schools, clean up the trash, whatever.
The point is that you can't just look at a statistic and say that it's a problem because it doesn't match some arbitrary notion of what "normal" should look like. It's far more productive to let normal sort itself out and focus on identifying and correcting the things that are actually wrong with our society. Positive discrimination is just a crutch, and it's one that only helps to reinforce the attitudes that it is trying to counteract. If people from whatever groups are hired because they belong to a group that is seen as not capable of competing equally then how can they feel like they've achieved anything? How can they feel like they are really equals?
Maybe things are so fucked up south of the border that you really need this sort of thing for the time being, I don't know, but at some point, when the shit calms down and everyone is living a happy, idyllic life, it's going to be important to ask these kinds of questions. The human species can't ever progress unless we really work at understanding ourselves and being honest with ourselves.
donnie said @ 11:59pm GMT on 19th February
Well, X and Y here are both failing. This entire discussion stems from the supposition that all gender imbalances in all fields of employment are the result of malice, oppression, shaming, other hostile or coercive forces, or otherwise some other cultural failing that is discouraging the participation of one gender or the other.
The counterargument here is simply to consider that, once all of that shit is eliminated, it still might not be the expected outcome that an exact 50% split results - and that there might not be anything wrong with that at all. What if we produce an idyllic, utopian, free and completely liberal society where, unencumbered, we find that we still end up with a few more men laying concrete and collecting trash, and a few more women providing translation services and helping children with speech disabilities? Is that terrible? Are we somehow a broken species for it? Why is it so repulsive to think that men and women might have some small degree of statistical complementary skills bias that has baked into our evolution over millions of years?
You ask what we're supposed to do with such information - the point is to focus on what the real problems are. Is there harassment? Fine - put an end to it. Is there a toxic work environment? Fine - fix it, fire the assholes, be relentless and stamp out the real problem.
Are girls being discouraged - by society, by their peers, by parents, by media and marketing - are they being discouraged from entering certain occupations? Are men being shamed out of others as well? Is there teasing and bullying that is stopping Steve from being a dancer and Amy from being a hacker? Fine - put an end to it. Are poor neighbourhoods not getting the education and support they need to produce quality employees? Fine - fix it; fund the schools, clean up the trash, whatever.
The point is that you can't just look at a statistic and say that it's a problem because it doesn't match some arbitrary notion of what "normal" should look like. It's far more productive to let normal sort itself out and focus on identifying and correcting the things that are actually wrong with our society. Positive discrimination is just a crutch, and it's one that only helps to reinforce the attitudes that it is trying to counteract. If people from whatever groups are hired because they belong to a group that is seen as not capable of competing equally then how can they feel like they've achieved anything? How can they feel like they are really equals?
Maybe things are so fucked up south of the border that you really need this sort of thing for the time being, I don't know, but at some point, when the shit calms down and everyone is living a happy, idyllic life, it's going to be important to ask these kinds of questions. The human species can't ever progress unless we really work at understanding ourselves and being honest with ourselves.
<-- Entry / Current Comment
donnie said @ 11:57pm GMT on 19th February
Well, X and Y here are both failing. This entire discussion stems from the supposition that all gender imbalances in all fields of employment are the result of malice, oppression, shaming, other hostile or coercive forces, or otherwise some other cultural failing that is discouraging the participation of one gender or the other.
The counterargument here is simply to consider that, once all of that shit is eliminated, it still might not be the expected outcome that an exact 50% split results - and that there might not be anything wrong with that at all. What if we produce an idyllic, utopian, free and completely liberal society where, unencumbered, we find that we still end up with a few more men laying concrete and collecting trash, and a few more women providing translation services and helping children with speech disabilities? Is that terrible? Are we somehow a broken species for it? Why is it so repulsive to think that men and women might have some small degree of statistical complementary skills bias that has baked into our evolution over millions of years?
You ask what we're supposed to do with such information - the point is to focus on what the real problems are. Is there harassment? Fine - put an end to it. Is there a toxic work environment? Fine - fix it, fire the assholes, be relentless and stamp out the real problem.
Are girls being discouraged - by society, by their peers, by parents, by media and marketing - are they being discouraged from entering certain occupations? Are men being shamed out of others as well? Is there teasing and bullying that is stopping Steve from being a dancer and Amy from being a hacker? Fine - put an end to it. Are poor neighbourhoods not getting the education and support they need to produce quality employees? Fine - fix it; fund the schools, clean up the trash, whatever.
The point is that you can't just look at a statistic and say that it's a problem because it doesn't match some arbitrary notion of what "normal" should look like. It's far more productive to let normal sort itself out and focus on identifying and correcting the things that are actually wrong with our society. Positive discrimination is just a crutch, and it's one that only helps to reinforce the attitudes that it is trying to counteract. If people from whatever groups are hired because they belong to a group that is seen as not capable of competing equally then how can they feel like they've achieved anything? How can they feel like they are really equals?
Maybe things are so fucked up south of the border that you really need this sort of thing for the time being, I don't know, but at some point, when the shit calms down and everyone is living a happy, idyllic life, it's going to be important to ask these kinds of questions. The human species can't ever progress unless we really work at understanding ourselves and being honest with ourselves.
