Wednesday, 29 October 2014

Ain't No Hollaback Girl

quote [ "An actor who recorded 10 hours of catcalls and remarks from passersby in New York City has received rape threats in response to a video detailing the harassment..." ]

Who the hell catcalls a woman? Never done it, never felt the need. Men need better role models.

At a recent Hallowe'en party, an 8-year-old girl ran over to me and said "Guess what I am?" She was dressed in a crop top, cut offs, boots, and a sassy hat. I hemmed and hawed until her mother explained she was Gwen Stefani, which was good because my guess was going to be "Tijuana child prostitute?"


Letter To A Friend About Girls

After comparing lives with you for years
I see how I?ve been losing: all the while
I?ve met a different gauge of girl from yours.
Grant that, and all the rest makes sense as well:
My mortification at your pushovers,
Your mystification at my fecklessness?
Everything proves we play in separate leagues.
Before, I couldn?t credit your intrigues
Because I thought all girls the same, but yes,
You bag real birds, though they?re from alien covers.


Now I believe your staggering skirmishes
In train, tutorial and telephone booth,
The wife whose husband watched away matches
While she behaved so badly in a bath,
And all the rest who beckon from that world
Described on Sundays only, where to want
Is straightway to be wanted, seek to find,
And no one gets upset or seems to mind
At what you say to them, or what you don?t:
A world where all the nonsense is annulled,


And beauty is accepted slang for yes.
But equally, haven?t you noticed mine?
They have their world, not much compared with yours,
But where they work, and age, and put off men
By being unattractive, or too shy,
Or having morals?anyhow, none give in:
Some of them go quite rigid with disgust
At anything but marriage: that?s all lust
And so not worth considering; they begin
Fetching your hat, so that you have to lie


Till everything?s confused: you mine away
For months, both of you, till the collapse comes
Into remorse, tears, and wondering why
You ever start such boring barren games
?But there, don?t mind my saeva indignatio:
I?m happier now I?ve got things clear, although
It?s strange we never meet each other?s sort:
There should be equal chances, I?d?ve thought.
Must finish now. One day perhaps I?ll know
What makes you be so lucky in your ratio


?One of those ?more things?, could it be? Horatio.
[SFW] [politics] [+7 Interesting]
[by lalanda@8:23pmGMT]

Comments

dolemite said @ 8:55pm GMT on 29th Oct [Score:5 Funny]
Maybe all those guys in the video were actually trying to advocate for ethical standards in street journalism?
the circus said @ 1:47pm GMT on 1st Nov
In 1985 there really were Satanists, but the idea that RPG's were a tool of a vast Satanic conspiracy was a ridiculous moral panic. In 1999 there really were school shootings, but the idea that video game playing either caused violence or was an indicator of a violent person was a ridiculous moral panic. In 2014 there really are misogynists, but the idea that gamers are vast misogynistic conspiracy is just a ridiculous moral panic. Remember how it was pointed out to people opposing gay marriage how their protests will be looked back upon as favorably as the protests against equal rights for minorities? Well that effect applies here, too.
dolemite said @ 8:06pm GMT on 1st Nov
I haven't heard anyone alleging a vast conspiracy among gamers at large, but you are of course free to tilt at the windmills you prefer.

I have certainly heard people saying that a lot of gamers appear to be misogynistic douchebags. I have heard people saying that it would be helpful for more people, gamers included, to speak out against this kind of behaviour and make it uncool instead of providing pockets of acceptability for it, whether by agreement or by silence.

I'm one of those people.

I don't find the issues particularly funny but the verbal acrobatics of various gamergate apologists certainly has been. Kind of like watching Bill Clinton's wordsmithing during the Starr investigations. It's always fun watching someone trying desperately to craft jewellery out of bullshit.
bones said @ 3:16pm GMT on 30th Oct [Score:3 Funny]
King Of The Hill said @ 9:23pm GMT on 29th Oct [Score:2 Underrated]
Same... Saying hello is a cat call? What the fuck kind of overly sensitive feminist fucking crap is this?

You walk through the right neighborhood and yeah, you are going to get hit on... Getting hit on or approached does not equate to cat calling.

Cat calling in my book was whistling that "whistle" when they walked by or Saying "nice tits", etc... Something obviously lewd and not socially acceptable in public or otherwise if you did not know the person.

What the fuck do they call it when they go to a club/bar and a guy buys them a drink? Is that a cat call now too?

They won't be happy until they've completely turned men into women haters and guess what? At that point we are right back to where we started anyway. Feminists are putting women back decades again whether they know it or not.
b said @ 4:24pm GMT on 30th Oct [Score:5 Insightful]
Instinctually, my reaction was similar to yours. I mean, guys saying hello is harassment?

But think about it. Like me, you're probably a man. Admittedly, I'm not the most shining example of manhood. I don't have a square jaw or six pack abs or huge muscles. But I was born with a penis, so there.

Anyway, when I walk down the street no one says anything to me. Random women do not say good morning, or hello or hey man. Men don't speak to me either. And that's good with me. Most of the time, I don't want to speak to anyone else, I don't want to acknowledge their greetings.

Now imagine every day of your life strangers say hello to you, they say, how's it going?, they say, what up girl?, they say, you have a beautiful smile! Why don't you smile more?, they say DAMN girl!, they say, look at what we got here! Damn!, they say Hey, can I get your number? Hey, can I give you my number? And on and on and on and on and on...

Sure, from your point of view, my point of view, the instances of possibly innocuous comments make it seem like this is being blown way out of proportion. But it's not because it's simply men trying to talk to a woman, it's because it's constant.

I learned about this from my ex-wife. She is a gorgeous woman. She has tattoos, long brown hair, beautiful smile, great features and a killer bod. She absolutely HATED taking the bus by herself, because without fail at the bus stop and on the bus a guy would try and talk to her, whether or not she had headphones in, a book out or sunglasses on or anything. She literally could not avoid men who wanted to talk to her because they wanted to. Obviously we are all living in a society where any stranger can come up and speak to you, and most of the time a lot of us aren't interested in conversations with strangers. But when you are a women, this is a constant issue. Sure, that one guy doesn't realize (or maybe he does) that he's the fifth or sixth or 20th guy of the day to try and talk to a woman who is just walking home from work and is sick of it, is worried that if she says no she'll be threatened or assaulted.

The point of the video is not to paint all men as sleazebag assholes, it's to allow you to see the world from someone else's point of view. The point is, that that ten hours is EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. for a lot of women.
sanepride said @ 9:44pm GMT on 29th Oct [Score:4 Good]
Seems to me like getting hit on or approached is worse than catcalling, which I would generally define as verbal harassment from afar. If I were a lady just walking down the street I might be just irritated by the catcalls, but genuinely intimidated, if not threatened, by strangers actually approaching with clearly lascivious intentions.
I don't thing it's 'overly sensitive feminist fucking crap' to expect to not be approached or harassed just for being in public.
cb361 said @ 11:11pm GMT on 29th Oct [Score:1 Underrated]
If women don't want strangers coming up to them on the street and talking, they shouldn't go outside. The sluts.

</sarcasm> I agree with you entirely, and I don't think men understand what it must feel like to be constantly faced with that. Polite or not polite. I absolutely hate people trying to talk to me on the street or in shops, though for completely different reasons. As though I'm supposed to be an extrovert by default, and the possibility that I might not be and fine it intrusive just doesn't matter. Fortunately men don't want to have sex with me, so it's not usually a problem for me.
Bruceski said @ 1:46am GMT on 30th Oct [Score:1 Good]
I make a point of saying "good morning/afternoon/evening" to everyone I pass BECAUSE I'm not an extrovert. It's too easy for me to just wander the streets lost in my own head, and acknowledging other people helps pull me out of that and be aware of what's going on around me.
arrowhen said @ 11:20am GMT on 30th Oct [Score:2]
Personally, I say "What's up?/How ya doin'?/[stern-faced guy nod]" to everyone I pass even WHILE wandering the streets lost in my own head, but I get annoyed when people think that's an invitation to further conversation rather than "I acknowledge you as a fellow human being, now fuck off and leave me alone."

I think that's at least partially a regional thing: I grew up in the rural/suburban NW and my urban NE girlfriend has asked me on more than one occasion why I keep talking to people if I don't want them to talk to me.
King Of The Hill said @ 10:33pm GMT on 29th Oct
It is overly sensitive to consider cat calling a nice greeting to a stranger of the opposite sex. Saying hello or attempting to strike up a conversation should not be construed as an advance if that is all it is.

I have many times through casual conversation complimented a female one her smile, hair, etc (no... Not "Nice tits") after a brief conversation. If that is considered a cat call versus a subtle flirt then I've been an asshole my whole life and the internet should have been more public in the 80's so I could try the disconnected aspect of online dating and hook ups then.

Following, or persisting in a conversation that is obviously unwelcome or one that doesn't even involve a pleasant greeting to start yeah--- should be considered creepy... My point was, as another has posted that the video highlights some greetings as cat calls that are a stretch at best.
sanepride said @ 11:07pm GMT on 29th Oct [Score:1 Sad]
I think you're being overly charitable in your assessment of these encounters. Maybe you live in a more friendly part of the world- where people routinely say hi to each other on the street. If so I'd understand your interpretation. In the video I identified one case where a guy just says 'good morning' that maybe wasn't meant as harassment, but I wasn't there and don't know what the vibe was.
Taleweaver said @ 7:20am GMT on 30th Oct
That's the problem with the entire video.

Except for a few select cases, the instances of men talking to the woman in question are cut together rapidly to give the impression of pretty much constant chat-up-bombardment. You can't single out the guys who, objectively speaking, went too far or those who just happened to be in the same video like them.

By the way, if I had wanted to make a point by recording this video, I would record that same video for, say, thirty days in a row and then pick out the one day where the most offensive guy (5-minute-man) appeared.

This isn't a National Geographic documentary, guys. It's a PETA documentary. The facts are probably right, but they're presented for emotional impact, not scientific accuracy.
buzhidao said @ 10:52am GMT on 30th Oct
well, that's it right there, i think. where i grew up (virginia) you do say hello to folks on the street (as a side note - it's not entirely to be friendly, there's a level of 'make eye contact, paranoically checking the person out' about it). older black men would often attach 'beautiful' or 'nice smile' or 'darlin' to it (i am female). i've also noticed this same type of interaction from some folks, usually black, in larger northern cities, though it's not nearly as common there, obviously.
i feel like there's a cultural issue playing out in this video that is not being acknowledged and which is, consciously or not, fueling a racism. and noone is talking about it (except in the comments, where it's awful).
GordonGuano said @ 8:58am GMT on 31st Oct [Score:2]
Taleweaver said @ 9:31am GMT on 31st Oct
Reason. Finally.
sanepride said @ 3:31pm GMT on 31st Oct
Of course the difference is that this is from the female/feminist viewpoint. Her most important point is that women are free to choose their level of outrage and offense.
bones said @ 12:53am GMT on 30th Oct [Score:1 Underrated]
"You walk through the right neighborhood and yeah, you are going to get hit on..."

No. No, no, no.

If you walk through a neighborhood, do you expect men to hit on you as a man? Would it bother you? Then why is it ok for men to do it to women? Hitting on people you don't know who are uncomfortable is HARASSMENT. Your desire to try to have sex with them is not, and never will be, more important than their right to be left alone.

This may seem crazy to you, but no one owes you their time or attention no matter how attractive or in public you may find them. If you think they do, you are entitled and treating others as objects who exist for your benefit.
King Of The Hill said @ 4:49am GMT on 30th Oct
Greeting someone in a non-threatening, non sexually forward manner is not cat calling and is not treating anyone like an object.

So hitting on a girl in a bar is harassment now? Seriously? It's only harassment if you persist after getting no response or negative response. A greeting, a introduction, a non sexual compliment does not constitute cat calling. Grow the fuck up.
Taleweaver said @ 8:06am GMT on 30th Oct [Score:2]
I get the impression that what feminists are trying to say is "if the woman doesn't want it, it's harrassment". Everybody has the right to feel harrassed if someone approaches them without consent. Sounds good, doesn't it?

The problem is, while it does sound good, it isn't. It even isn't good if you assume that men have the same right to feel harrassed.

The problem is that if you put the definition of harrassment entirely into the hands of those who may feel harrassed, you are left with no behavior that can be safely considered socially acceptable at all. Who says that the one person you're talking to won't feel harrassed by it?

Even worse, the definition of what's harrassment and what's not may suddenly depend on who does the harrassing: "That fat guy who said 'hi sweetie' to me on the street yesterday? Ugh, total harrassment. On the other hand, that hot latino who complimented me on my tits? Yeah, that was nice of him."
cb361 said @ 9:35am GMT on 30th Oct
I think that's the crux of what makes this area so difficult. If there was an objective definition of what's okay, and what's not, it would just be a case of enforcing it. But two different people will react to the same situation in different ways. The same person will respond in different ways depending on their mood at the time. I am in no way claiming that harassment (or worse) is somehow acceptable, but in the real world of sexual dalliance, sometimes "no" does mean "yes". It's hard to judge on a case by case basis, let alone generally, and the only solution would be to stop men and women interacting entirely.
arrowhen said @ 11:01am GMT on 30th Oct [Score:1 Underrated]
the only solution would be to stop men and women interacting entirely.

Another solution would be to adopt a universal safeword, one that always means "no", no matter what. My vote would be for "no", since that's a nice, short, easy to remember word that already means "no". Admittedly that would be a bit of a buzzkill for people who get off on childish power games, but surely they'd be willing to suck it up for the good of humanity, right?
midden said @ 1:09pm GMT on 30th Oct
Humans just aren't that simple.
Ayn Rand said @ 1:23pm GMT on 30th Oct
For the good of Humanity? What's humanity ever done for me?
Taleweaver said @ 9:52am GMT on 30th Oct
Men move to Mars, women move to Venus.
bones said @ 2:49pm GMT on 30th Oct
Nope. She doesn't know if your hello is friendly or if responding to you will be seen as an invitation for you to follow her down the street and bother her. Being raped is probably not a real, legitimate concern for you, but it is for women and if you don't think about it from her perspective, you need to grow the fuck up.
Bleb said @ 10:06pm GMT on 29th Oct [Score:2 Underrated]
I'm sure I'm going to offend someone here, but I can't be the only one getting sick to fucking death of reading about harassment and male privilege and feminism and #gamergate and desperately lonely manchildren spewing frustrated hate from their keyboards and angry women demanding equality while simultaneously painting an entire gender as sleazy assholes.

Guys, don't be dicks. Girls, you're not always being assaulted. Everyone, stop fucking arguing about this shit on the internet. Seriously. I know that there's gender inequality, and I know that guys are more likely to sexually harass than women are, and there should be discussion about that. But this whole shitshow seems to have exploded online over the last few months and it's getting pitiful. I'm embarrassed for everyone who has been sucked into its hysteria. Maybe it's the naive Canadian in me, but it seems to me that if everyone is reasonably nice to everyone else, then things will be fine.

endrant
bones said @ 12:46am GMT on 30th Oct [Score:3]
"and angry women demanding equality while simultaneously painting an entire gender as sleazy assholes."

No. They don't. Only sleezy assholes claim they do.
Dienes said @ 11:19pm GMT on 29th Oct [Score:1 Underrated]
1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted, at least in the US. With those kind of odds, I don't think you can call it 'hysteria.'
yevishere said @ 11:29pm GMT on 29th Oct
Thanks for bringing up that bullshit statistic.
sanepride said @ 11:40pm GMT on 29th Oct [Score:1 Underrated]
Probably wouldn't hurt to get a citation, both on the statistic and your claim that it's bullshit.
yevishere said @ 12:18am GMT on 30th Oct [Score:1 Interesting]
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/may/02/are-20-percent-women-sexually-assaulted-they-gradu/
Assault can be verbal or visual or physical
What that means is whatever you want it to mean.
I have been exposed to a flasher and have been called bad names.
Would I consider it unpleasant ... Yes.
Would I consider it sexual assault. Don't think so.
I think most people think of forceful sexual physical event when they think of assult.
This statistic is bullshit because it is defines sexual assault so broadly.

sanepride said @ 12:49am GMT on 30th Oct
On the other hand, some large, unknowable number of actual sexual assaults- date rapes, workplace, incest, etc, are never reported. So that statistic as quoted may be questionable, but the actual number could still be disturbingly high.
arrowhen said @ 7:28am GMT on 30th Oct [Score:1 Good]
1% would be disturbingly high.
GordonGuano said @ 3:23pm GMT on 30th Oct
Good news! There are 3,794204 men in New York City, only 100 of which hit on the chick in the dress.

....or is 0.00002636% also disturbing?
bones said @ 12:50am GMT on 30th Oct
I can't think of a single female friend who never was touched inappropriately in a public place. Gropings, attempted fingerings, boob grabs, guys trying to put a dick in their hands. That may be only anecdotal evidence to you, but it is the sum of my life experience.

Women get assaulted a lot. I don't think it's hysteria, and I don't like that anyone even uses that word given its origins, its connotations, and its use historically to deem women mentally unfit and have them committed. "Hysteria" is a catchall that has been used to discredit, demean, and ignore women. It is vile.
GordonGuano said @ 3:28pm GMT on 30th Oct [Score:1 Funsightful]
Would "moral panic" be acceptable to you? No connotations of dislodged wombs there.
lalanda said @ 2:21am GMT on 30th Oct
I think there's a climate of sexual assault regardless of gender.
Taleweaver said @ 7:09am GMT on 30th Oct
If you consider it sexual assault when a stranger says "hello" to you on the street, then the numbers are probably right.
steele said @ 10:35pm GMT on 29th Oct
I understand that there needs to be conversations on the various topics in order for things to change, but I don't really see conversations so much as people just being assholes to each other... I think we may want to go ahead and reboot the internet.
dolemite said @ 3:18pm GMT on 30th Oct
Terribly sorry that this issue is becoming tiresome to you. It might cheer you up to consider that you're lucky to live in this decade where such "shitshows" only inconvenience us for a few months. You'd probably have found the human rights movement of the 50's and 60's unbearably tedious.
b said @ 4:26pm GMT on 30th Oct
As sick as women are of being verbally and sexually harassed?

I get it man, it just seems like this is all so hysterical and blown out of proportion. But honestly, this stuff needs to happen because it's long past time we stopped treating women like baby-making sex objects for men and as fully realized human beings with desires and needs beyond taking a stiff dick and fetching a beer and a sandwich.
Taleweaver said @ 7:06pm GMT on 30th Oct
Newsflash: We, as a society, are already treating women as fully realized human beings. That's why we can look at videos like the one posted and identify what's happening there as offensive and NOT ACCEPTABLE. If we, as a society, thought that women were nothing more than pretty things men take, then hardly anyone would take offence at what's happening and actually tell the woman that she should be happy so many men are acknowledging her beauty.

It's the same thing with "rape culture". There is no rape culture in the western world. Rape culture means that rape doesn't exist as a crime because a woman's body is there for a man to take. That's the reason why rapists try to defend themselves by stating that "the woman wanted it" or "she dressed sluttily so it's her fault". If rape was socially acceptable, men wouldn't need to resort to foul excuses.

There's a lot of societal misconceptions about what should be acceptable male behavior towards women and what not, I give you that. But there is a definite consensus that women have the same rights as men, including the right to be left the fuck alone if they desire.
sanepride said @ 9:48pm GMT on 30th Oct
Newsflash: Until we, as a society, can manage to achieve pay equity, political parity, and an actual reckoning of institutional misogyny in all its forms (including workplace harassment, domestic violence, and sexual objectification); we are NOT treating women as fully realized human beings. Yes, we've made great strides, but sorry, we're not there just yet.
Taleweaver said @ 10:42pm GMT on 30th Oct
It's a long way to go from "go suck it and then make me a sammich" to equal paya and political parity (plus adequate representation in corporate boards), and I'm not saying we're already there. What I'm saying is that you won't find that many people actually in opposition of women achieving all that, and those who do have some heavy explaining to do why they would deny women the same treatment (stuff like "we can't give them leadership positions; what if they get pregnant and are suddenly no longer available?"). Not much longer and we'll be beyond that bullshit too.

Most of us already WANT it. Give us some credit for that, at least.
sanepride said @ 11:01pm GMT on 30th Oct
Sure, I don't question your personal intentions. Just sayin' you're giving our society too much credit. Thing is, it's pretty easy for us men to say women are being treated as full human beings- and no doubt some women might agree, but certainly many would argue we have a long way to go and I'd give them the benefit of the doubt because- like the lady in the video- they're the ones living it. It's kind of like when white people boast that we've moved beyond race and black people have achieved equality. Plenty of young men being stopped, harassed, and sometimes shot by the cops would beg to differ.
mechanical contrivance said @ 2:35pm GMT on 31st Oct
I think what Taleweaver is saying is that things aren't perfect yet, but they are a lot better than they used to be.
sanepride said @ 3:02pm GMT on 31st Oct
Sure, I got that. Just like what white people say about institutional racism.

And what I'm saying is that from the point of view of the person on the receiving end, such assurances are pointless and patronizing.
mechanical contrivance said @ 6:01pm GMT on 31st Oct
You act like the improvements we've made so far don't matter. Don't ignore improvements just because there is still improving left to be done.
Menchi said @ 12:14am GMT on 31st Oct
"If we, as a society, thought that women were nothing more than pretty things men take, then hardly anyone would take offence at what's happening and actually tell the woman that she should be happy so many men are acknowledging her beauty."

"The other 95 times some guy says "hello" or "have a nice day": is that what counts as "harrassment" these days? Just greeting someone on the street who doesn't want to be greeted is harrassment? Man, that's a fucked-up definition if I've ever seen one."

I guess we haven't reached that point in society yet, after all.
Taleweaver said @ 7:35am GMT on 31st Oct
And that's the other side of the story: People adopting extreme viewpoints such as "the first word you utter towards someone who doesn't want to be talked to is already harrassment" because they believe that if they're taking less extreme stances, they will achieve less and overlook that this may easily be mistaken for nothing but belligerence for belligerence's sake.
Kat said @ 9:58pm GMT on 31st Oct [Score:1 Underrated]
The creepy part is not knowing if the guy trying to talk to you is friendly, or is going to be the guy who neutrally says "good morning" and then silently walks next to you for 5 fucking minutes.

Anecdote:

Many years ago, I had the pleasure of being in a meeting in which the client was introduced to me (I was the only woman in the room). He stopped conversation with the 5 other men in the group, turned to me, and said: "you know, you really should smile".

My response: "Sir, the minute you stop flirting with me, I will smile."

The rest of the men in the group took a step back, laughing, and the young client paled.

I grinned.

yogi said @ 12:56am GMT on 3rd Nov [Score:1 Interesting]
I have a "pick-up line" for everybody. And it's always about what's in front of us, not about the person.

Couple days ago I got on an elevator with an African-American woman, about 34 or so--I'm white and over 60. She saw me hit the floor button and then hit the same button, which happened to be the only one which was lit up. I said, "I do that too, all the time! Just gotta make sure it stays lit up."

She cracked up, which was the point. We rode the rest of the way in silence, with smiles on our faces, not looking at each other.

Here's another elevator pickup-line, said to an elderly white man: "How often do these elevators run? Every other day?"

Just today, at the grocery store, I heard a woman mutter about how cold it was in front of the cold case, and so I remarked on it and got a humorous remark back, especially when she saw that I had a hoodie on and she was wearing just a T-shirt.

In all the scenes we saw in the featured video, the men are relating to her as an object, not to her as a person, not from their heart. Where did those guys learn how to relate to human beings?

I'm hearing-impaired. Makes it tough to meet people. My wife is one of the more outgoing people on the planet, and pretty, and engaging. Whenever we travel, for example, and we're sitting waiting for the plane, she'll head off tog get something to drink. I might be able to watch her from afar and see her talking with someone, and it matters naught whom--I read body language very well and the interactions are always proper--and if I do, when she comes back, I always ask in a joshing and gentle manner, "So who's your new best friend?" And she'll always have something interesting she found out.

And I think that's the issue--the woman in the film had a pissed-off look on her face no matter where she was. It's like she was expecting it, and energetically inviting unwanted interactions.

Whereas my wife disarms the hit before it even happens.
Taleweaver said @ 9:04pm GMT on 29th Oct
Watched the video of the woman getting harrassed. Ugh.

That guy walking next to her for what seems an eternity? Creepy as fuck. Those guys trying to chat her up in what they think is an original way? Facepalmingly ignorant and sexist. That guy commenting on her ass after she has passed him? Yeah, neanderthal.

The other 95 times some guy says "hello" or "have a nice day": is that what counts as "harrassment" these days? Just greeting someone on the street who doesn't want to be greeted is harrassment? Man, that's a fucked-up definition if I've ever seen one.

Doesn't excuse the assholes whose response to any public criticism of male behavior is to send the woman in question death threats.

In other news: Feminists criticize song encouraging fat women to accept their bodies
Menchi said @ 11:56pm GMT on 29th Oct [Score:3 WTF]
How dare feminists criticize anything! Just like those assholes who are always talking about the good and bad parts of movies -- what gives them the right?
Taleweaver said @ 7:25am GMT on 30th Oct
+1 Hilariously Besides The Point
Menchi said @ 12:56pm GMT on 30th Oct
Oh, so you're saying that the undertones of that link at the end (and the title you selected for it) wasn't "Hey, feminists hate everything, even things they should be supporting if they weren't hypocritical, lying bitches"? In that case, do enlighten us, because that's sure as hell how it came off.
GordonGuano said @ 2:10pm GMT on 30th Oct [Score:1 Informative]
Well, you're making the mistake of thinking that Feministing contributors care about feminism or even know what it means, so I can see how you could get het up there.
Taleweaver said @ 3:29pm GMT on 30th Oct
True. Sorry about that mistake.
Taleweaver said @ 1:09pm GMT on 30th Oct
I could, but wouldn't that be mansplaining?
Menchi said @ 11:59pm GMT on 30th Oct
For my comment to have been beside the point, you would have needed a point to begin with.
Taleweaver said @ 7:37am GMT on 31st Oct
Must... resist... the urge... to mansplain...
dolemite said @ 3:04pm GMT on 30th Oct [Score:2]
Thanks for linking to that article, which makes a lot of great points. No seriously, that is one excellent, spot-on-target article. Thanks for linking to it.
Dienes said @ 11:22pm GMT on 29th Oct
I suppose if someone stared at your tits and lasciviously said "Well helloooooooo" I would count that as a cat call.

Just a simple: "Have a good one!" No, not cat calling at all. And that is infuriating, since it trivializes the actual harassment.
Taleweaver said @ 7:23am GMT on 30th Oct
I stand corrected. You're right, that "well hellooooooooo" guy definitely is way over the line too. Totally forgot about that one.

I mean, ten cases of harrassment in ten hours is ten too many. But why do you have to throw everybody who makes any sort of statement towards a woman on the street into the same group?
b said @ 3:05pm GMT on 31st Oct
Finally read the link you provided there, and you simply miscategorized the article in order to try and make a point. I bet you didn't even read it.

The author was criticizing the lyrics of the song for a) seeking "fat" acceptance in the eyes of others: "Again, you shouldnít worry about your size. But, again, loving yourself because dudes like what youíve got going on is a pretty flimsy form of self-acceptance. In fact, itís not really self-acceptance at all if it depends on other people thinking youíre hot."


and b) shaming skinny women simply for being skinny: "Secondly, good lord, people, itís like itís scientifically impossible to write a song about how great it is to have curves that doesnít insult people who donít. Being thin doesnít make you a bitch. Being thin doesnít mean youíre dumb. Being thin doesnít make you 'slutty.'"

There's nothing negative there about encouraging women to accept their bodies. Quite the opposite in fact:

"I see the magazines workiní that Photoshop
We know that shit ainít real
Címon now, make it stop


Well, that is kind of awesome. The relentless Photoshopping of womenís bodies into hairless, poreless mannequins of physiologically impossible proportions is totally screwing with everyoneís expectations of what actual human bodies look like. And you donít get to hear pushback against that phenomenon in pop songs all that often. Good for you, Meghan Trainor. You go, Meghan Trainor."

Anyway, you and Gordon enjoy your paradise world where women are completely happy and never subjected to anything bad, and the only bad people are those of us flipping out over minor bullshit that doesn't even matter because everything is perfect.
bones said @ 6:59am GMT on 2nd Nov
I will explain what is wrong with the song for you. Its message is very clear:

What matters is that you are beautiful. As long as men still find you attractive and want to have sex with, you should feel good about yourself. "All the right curves in all the right places" certainly implies that any body type that is not like hers is not the right body type.

The song, though fun and catchy as hell, perpetuates a damaging message and encourages us to keep focusing on and valuing women for how they look. If she had written a song about how she's a great person for creating things, or being a kind friend, that would be a truly positive message.
arrowhen said @ 7:58am GMT on 2nd Nov
Here's a thought, maybe we should stop looking for Important Life Messages in silly pop songs.
mechanical contrivance said @ 2:26pm GMT on 2nd Nov
Exactly. We should be basing our lives on death metal lyrics.
AssBastard said @ 10:37am GMT on 3rd Nov
"There are no fingerprints deep underwater, nothing to tie one to a crime..." -- Wow, that's good life advice.
Taleweaver said @ 11:38am GMT on 2nd Nov
Exactly my point.

The criticism of the song from a feminist point of view is that it sends the message "it's great to be full figured because that means men will like you."

The criticism of male behavior on the streets of NYC expressed in the video is that it sends the message "I'm entitled to your time and attention because I'm a man."

I'm saying that maybe someone's reading more into the messages than intended. Maybe the message of "All about the bass" is "don't worry that people will dislike you for not being slender". Maybe the message of someone who says "Hey there" to a woman passing by is "hey there".
Bruceski said @ 6:06am GMT on 30th Oct
As far as "is hello harassment" how about we all just consensually hug it out and agree that some things are okay, some are clearly unacceptable, and there can be a vast gulf between how something is intended and how it's received that usually warrants an apology if pointed out.
buzhidao said @ 10:33am GMT on 30th Oct
the guys who follow her or get belligerent are bad. the rest, meh. i was more troubled that the video comes off with a racist undertone, which is hugely problematic.
monday said @ 12:39pm GMT on 30th Oct [Score:1 Interesting]
She doubtless picked minority neighborhoods in the hopes of getting more catcalls. Which is a racist move, sampling error in calling it "New York" notwithstanding.
gdoube said @ 10:41am GMT on 30th Oct
It seems like all the problematic guys in this video are black or latino - but not being familiar with that part of the world, maybe that's just a demographic or statistical thing that reflects the overall makeup of that area...?
GordonGuano said @ 1:59pm GMT on 30th Oct [Score:1 Interesting]
According to Hanna Rosin, the white guys were edited out. Of course, suggesting that catcalling is a part of black and Latino culture would be horribly racist because everyone is exactly the same.
buzhidao said @ 11:42am GMT on 30th Oct
she's in nyc, so there are tons of different people there, but could be that it's a predominantly black or latino neighborhood. i do feel like it's a partially cultural thing, like it wouldnt have happened in, say, chinatown. or wall street area (although i personally find wall street types inherently creepy and they dont even have to say a word).
AssBastard said @ 3:02pm GMT on 30th Oct [Score:1 Interesting]
Wall St. types are the creepiest. Investment bankers especially. Like this guy. Or this one. Especially this one. And don't forget this one!
bones said @ 3:20pm GMT on 30th Oct
I would say more economic. Rich guys have little time or motivation to hang on a door step or on a corner and bother people. I would guess that acquaintance rape is the far more common offense for people with money.
GordonGuano said @ 2:05pm GMT on 30th Oct
Chris Ryan had an amusing anecdote about how his wife, who is from Spain, came home in a bad mood from shopping in Los Angeles one day. Apparently she wasn't getting enough attention. Are Angelenos more polite than New Yorkers? Undoubtedly. But this video is just harping on social mores, which are all equally valid.
Resurrected Morris said @ 3:39pm GMT on 30th Oct
What is a hollaback girl?
buckaroo50 said @ 4:25pm GMT on 30th Oct
Unfortunately sometimes the attention is returned, and as long as that happens there will always be guys who keep doing it.
Dienes said @ 11:15pm GMT on 30th Oct
Intermittent reinforcement is a bitch.
Dienes said @ 11:16pm GMT on 30th Oct
I really want to see a white dude with this camera make the exact same walk. For some reason I don't think people will be so eager to be friendly.
shiftace said @ 11:38pm GMT on 30th Oct [Score:2]
For some reason, all the people so eager to be friendly to the woman in the video completely
ignored her camera man.
Taleweaver said @ 7:38am GMT on 31st Oct [Score:1 Funny]
My guess is the camera was just hidden well enough in a backpack or something.
shiftace said @ 3:34pm GMT on 31st Oct
What are you suggesting- The eager to be friendly people would have acknowledged his existence if they saw the camera? Like, "Hey bro is that camera in your back? Well if it is, you have a nice day and can I have your number"?
Taleweaver said @ 7:14pm GMT on 31st Oct
More like "whoa, what is this, Candid Camera"?
AssBastard said @ 12:04pm GMT on 2nd Nov
Taleweaver said @ 9:08am GMT on 3rd Nov
#notthesame

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