Monday, 25 July 2016

Why the Clinton America Sees Isn't the Clinton Colleagues Know

quote [ This is not a profile of Hillary Clinton. It is not a review of her career or an assessment of her campaign. You won’t find any shocking revelations on her emails, on Benghazi, on Whitewater, or even on her health care plan.

This is an effort to answer a question I’ve been struggling with since at least 2008: Why is the Hillary Clinton described to me by her staff, her colleagues, and even her foes so different from the one I see on the campaign trail? ]

I found this a rather interesting read.
[SFW] [politics] [+7]
[by Bruceski@9:03pmGMT]


sanepride said @ 10:36pm GMT on 25th Jul [Score:1 Insightful]
Seems like I've read this before- when she was First Lady, when she was running for Senator, and especially during her 2008 Presidential campaign.
But it's also an observation that's been made of other politicians who may have been appealing, personable people in close and professional settings but had a hard time carrying those characteristics into their public personas. Similar observations were made about Al Gore and Mitt Romney.
conception said @ 10:59pm GMT on 25th Jul
And of course, you have the opposite. People the public loves that were giant assholes, ala Steve Jobs.
sanepride said @ 11:05pm GMT on 25th Jul
Absolutely. Public personas are often manufactured items. Sometimes they work well, sometimes not so much. Sometimes they are treated with great respect and they maintain their shiny finish. Sometimes they are beaten and battered to the point of just noisily creaking along.
steele said @ 1:56am GMT on 26th Jul [Score:1 Underrated]
Here in Florida, whenever a Hillary commercial shows up on TV talking about her time with CDF this is what I think of:

Hillary, as First Lady, advocated strongly for the restructuring of welfare. Her former co-workers at CDF, on the other hand, were infuriated. CDF founder and President Marian Wright Edelman declared that President Clinton’s “signature on this pernicious bill makes a mockery of his pledge not to hurt children.”

“Hillary Clinton is an old friend, but they are not friends in politics,” the CDF president told Democracy Now in a 2007 interview. At the time, CDF “profoundly disagreed with the forms of the welfare reform bill, and we said so,” Marian Wright Edelman explained.

Hillary Clinton often boasts about helping children, but she betrayed them as First Lady
rylex said @ 9:12pm GMT on 25th Jul
Obvious answer, it's because her colleagues all drink the fucking kool-aid, duh.
sanepride said @ 10:31pm GMT on 25th Jul [Score:3 Underrated]
...or her enemies. Funny how it can work both ways.
1234 said[1] @ 1:34am GMT on 26th Jul
hellboy said @ 1:29am GMT on 26th Jul
Too bad she didn't listen to the many people who warned her that the illegal invasion of Iraq would result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.
foobar said @ 1:52am GMT on 26th Jul
I'm sure she did. She just didn't care.
foobar said @ 1:52am GMT on 26th Jul
If she were a man, this wouldn't be called "relationship building," it'd be called corruption or the old boy's network.
Bruceski said @ 2:36am GMT on 26th Jul [Score:2]
Same way that when women talk and take charge they're called "bitchy".
foobar said @ 5:09am GMT on 26th Jul [Score:1 Good]
Sure. I wasn't trying to make a gender argument, I was just pointing out that this isn't exactly a positive quality.
KingPellinore said @ 2:22pm GMT on 26th Jul
"Bitches get shit DONE."
-Tina Fey
eidolon said[1] @ 6:26am GMT on 26th Jul [Score:2 Insightful]
How does one carry out diplomacy if not by building relationships? How does one get people to work together for a greater good without strong networking capabilities?

You may hate the give and take nature of politics, but that is the nature of humanity and the world. That is how things get done. You may not think that's how they ought to get done, but people are historically not good at 'ought to'. People aren't going to start making good choices because it's reasonable or contributes to some greater picture, they do it because they feel they have an incentive.

I am sick of this whole Crooked Hillary the Liar narrative. After wasting gobs of money looking for wrong-doing, highly motivated investigators couldn't find anything damning. But that doesn't change the narrative. Say it enough times, and people believe it; after all, why would everyone keep saying it if it weren't true?
raphael_the_turtle said[1] @ 1:49pm GMT on 26th Jul
If Hillary Clinton doesn't want to be dubbed a liar, perhaps she should stop lying? We can make excuses about the email server all we want, but not once has anything she said about it danced anywhere but around "the truth." There's no vast Right Wing conspiracy controlling what comes out of her mouth. As far as I know.

Edit: To save us both a few minutes. Fact Check summary. Note the part where she still isn't telling the truth despite repeatedly walking back her claims over the year.
eidolon said @ 10:16pm GMT on 26th Jul
They were calling her a liar before the email server scandal ever started. They only got into it because Benghazi was such a bust. The fact is that she didn't compromise national security, she was not doing anything that precious Sec. of States had not done, and it's not lying to misremember a handful of emails out of 80,000. If she'd changed her narrative, then she'd still be a liar in the eyes of those who hate her, but now she'd also be weak, a flip-flopper, you name it.

People were already convinced Clinton was a liar, and now they've latched onto the one thing that might make them right. It's like they wanted to hang someone as a murderer, found out they once tripped a kid in third grade, and said, "Good enough!"
raphael_the_turtle said @ 10:48pm GMT on 26th Jul
They were calling her a liar before the email scandal because she was lying before the email scandal. I used the email scandal as the most recent example. The lying during the email scandal isn't some outlier, it's indicative of her behavior over the years.

Hillary Clinton lying for 13 minutes straight.

And I don't know if you've been keeping up with the discussions we've been having over Listen, Liberal, but much of what we're talking about has to do with the fact that the neo-liberal ideology is very much dishonest and is taking advantage of the misrepresentation of "progressive values" that they hold in contrast to what they're marketing them as.
eidolon said @ 11:27pm GMT on 26th Jul [Score:1 Funny]
Sorry, meant to give you a +1 Interesting. Moderate THEN reply... silly eidolon.
eidolon said @ 11:26pm GMT on 26th Jul
Trying to read all of it but for some reason all pages (including front pages) cut off at a certain point for me. For instance, on the 10 post display front page, if I am not logged in, I can see all those posts and the back link to go to older posts (which you have to be logged in to use). When I log in, the posts cut off before that and I just have to manually do the offset in the url.

Not sure if anyone else has this issue.

I tried arguing in another post that free college education is a feint and won't really solve poverty. No one was having it. So far this discussion seems full of things that should be obvious but the commentators still think there's some kind us and them. There's only us. We made this system. This system of governance molds itself to our whims so we'll vote for people. The boot strappy bullshit from both sides is a response to basic human selfishness of not wanting to be responsible for eachother. Both sides are against big government because the American people are against big government even if that's silly. We see the government as them rather than as us. We see them as rulers rather than servants. So of course that's what we get.

Politicians didn't swindle or trick us any more than we wanted to be swindled and tricked. We are a nation that loves to be lied to and then, when forced to acknowledge we've been fed lies, pretend that we didn't love them and gobble them down.

Handing this election to Trump won't fix that just as giving it to Clinton won't make it any worse.

What you should be more concerned about is that your quality of life is highly dependent on the economic relationships we have with other countries. We need a President who will preserve those relationships or the US is going to lose its power and wealth.

Stop searching for a perfect system where no one gets hurts and no one gets left behind. It doesn't exist. It's a theoretical limit we can approach but will never achieve.

If Sanders had been elected, maybe things would have become better for the poor, but there would still be poverty and hunger. That veteran might still be shooting squirrels to feed his children. You'll pat yourself on the back all the same, say you championed for the less fortunate. You'll be no different than the current DNC. When an ideology fails and someone gets left behind, we, as humans, just learn to ignore it. We don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You might tell yourself you won't turn your back on someone else's suffering to maintain the good feelings, that you won't ignore the little failures so you can call what is mostly a success simply a success. But you will. You can't be anything but human.
raphael_the_turtle said @ 11:42pm GMT on 26th Jul [Score:1 Underrated]
I've found doing a ctrl-a will make the page show up. It's a weird thing. I think steele is aware of it?

here's an excerpt of the book

Look, making excuses for politicians is probably the wrongest possible thing you could do. If you're not going to hold them accountable for their inconsistencies, then yes, it is your fault. But being taken advantage because they are outright lying to you and you believe it, which is what many third way politicians are doing, that's another thing entirely. We are in the midst of heading to Shittown, USA, population us. The third wayers are pushing an economic agenda that is disenfranchising many of the middle and lower classes while taking advantage of the insecurity it introduces into society as social conflicts. Read the book, don't read the book, whatever. But get off your nihilistic we can't have a perfect system bullshit. We're not screaming for economic justice for fun, for many of us it's about our daily survival. The nation is heading towards economic collapse and we're being led their voluntarily.
steele said[1] @ 12:05am GMT on 27th Jul [Score:2 Informative]
Yeah, it's some sort of chrome bug. I'm looking into a workaround for it. eidolon, (HoZay, you too), in the meantime you can do a ctrl-a as raph suggested or if you're on mobile I've found selecting a single word and then doing a select all pulls the whole page up. Sometimes I have to close my tab out and reopen it on my phone. Weird shit.

raph, I've been dropping links to that article all over facebook. Not many bites. I'll hit you up later with an idea I've been working on.

eidolon said @ 11:59pm GMT on 26th Jul
You'll be led there no matter what because the system is not sustainable. If you're lucky, you'll die before we hit a major fresh water crisis.
raphael_the_turtle said @ 12:17am GMT on 27th Jul
Maybe, but some of us are a bit keen on our existence and aren't quite ready to give it up so easily.
HoZay said @ 12:04am GMT on 27th Jul
I've had that partly blank page issue with Chrome browser on a phone.

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