Confederate monuments are kinda the ultimate participation trophy when you think about it.

There's no shame in coming second.

third prize is, you're fired.

The price of civil disobedience.

Doesn't change the fact Confederate monuments are participation trophies the participants themselves did not want.

"I think it wisest not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the example of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered."

-General Robert E. Lee.

Nope. I will continue to post it, every time someone defends this shit.

So you did notice it yesterday? Care to state your opinion on that, or just plan to shit post all day and avoid it?

"Most [confederate monuments] were put in place during the early decades of Jim Crow or in reaction to the civil rights movement."

Holy shit, that's fucked up. I always assumed they were older than that.

Sadly, that's the danger of monuments. Sure, when you first build them, everyone is aware of why they've been put up. But wait a generation or two, and now you've rewritten history. Same with "one nation, under God" or "in God we trust."

This went along with the addition of the battle flag to several state flags.

I feel that destroying such monuments is no better than trying to wipe out history. The people of today were shaped by the people of the past - both good and bad - and we in turn shape the people of tomorrow. Clearing out confederate monuments is no better than clearing out monuments to MLK or other civil rights leaders. We are here today because of, or in spite of, the struggles of the past, and to try to delete bits and pieces of history is no better than nazi book burning.

Put them in a fucking museum.

You don't memorialise traitors. I have never once taken a stroll through Benedict Arnold State Park.

Yet some fucking how, I know exactly who Benedict Arnold is.

Well said.
Although as a Canadian I see him as a man loyal to a (at the time) Crown that ddin't deserve that loyalty.

I woudl have been more okay with getting rid of anything glorifying that baby-killer Custer.

But that's "American Heritage and Culture.®" That's what alt-right is "protecting" and what white supremacistsConservatives march for.

You also don't stroll down Hitler street in Germany or Mussolini Street in Italy. This isn't about preserving culture, it's about indoctrinating fear.

"You also don't stroll down Hitler street in Germany."

Of course you're right, but I'm curious about something. For a long time it wasn't just statues and street names that were expunged in Germany, but symbols and books as well. Some symbols remain illegal there, and until recently, the reprinting of Mein Kampf was banned. I'm not sure I can see a clear line between eradicating statuary deemed impolitic, and doing the same with public art, books, etc. Is there a thin edge or a wedge here, or are statues a unique case.

I think the difference is education vs celebration. You can retain all sorts of things in an academic sense - textbooks, museum pieces, library collections. But I think the line is when you profit from it, celebrate or push forward the message. At least in Germany's case. But restriction of speech is definitely a slippery slope - especially at the government level. What we've generally seen so far is societal pressures which can both be good and bad.

The main fear I have is that repressing, shaming and censoring these views do not remove them or convince people of a new way of thinking.

"Censoring these views do not remove them or convince people of a new way of thinking." Well that's exactly right, but the censorious view seems to be in the ascent nonetheless. I'm not sure that that's what's at work here, but I not certain it's not part of it. I'm also not sure that removal of some of these things isn't a bit of whitewashing (pun semi intended). The issue about the crest for Harvard Law was absurd. Those references to slave owners should be there in perpetuity - slave owners were instrumental in founding the school. It's Soviet style revisionism to try to erase that.

Anyhow, we'll see where this nets out - The Duke's of Hazard car is out, but Mao t-shirts are still cool...

History is written by the victors.

EDIT: As a separate point, monuments are, in the strictest sense, idols. I'm ok with idolizing MLK. Maybe not so much Robert E. Lee. The Dukes of Hazzard hasn't aged well.

It's not wiping out history. It's merely choosing what we want to celebrate.

I grew up & still live in the South. Multiple significant battles near where I live now.
Trails, battlefields, overlooks, and museums aplenty. Regular re-enactors. The only monument I'm aware of is part of a national cemetary, was erected by the Union, and isn't of an individual.
It is entirely possible to be a big tourist stop about the Civil War without statues of the Confederate 'heroes.'

Correction: Looked into it - there is actually a small bust of a Confederate Lt General that had a little controversy over it and the NAACP decided not to press the issue.

In most instances I've been reading about, the plan is not to destroy them, but to move them off of public land. The ones in Baltimore, for instance, may be moved to a Confederate cemetery and a museum.

That would be the sensible thing to do, and give them context that includes the fact that their erection was long after the civil war.

But Russia, Italy, Germany, and Spain all had similar problems. I don't think they should be removed and destroyed. It is part of American history, and they shouldn't be ignored or made to disappear completely.

Do I get bonus points for using 'sensible' and 'erection' in the same sentence?

Yes, just like how Germany doesn't have monuments to Hitler, and thus, wiped knowledge of WWII from history.

Most of these places removing the statues are putting them in museums and some such - history is being preserved, just not glorified.

And in case anyone missed it Godwin has officially cleared all Charlottesville conversations.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/godwins-law-mike-godwin-internet-hitler-charlottesville-virginia-donald-trump-a7892171.html

this isn't an attempt to alter or ignore history.

removing the confederate monuments is to stop the glorification of people who have brought harm to these united states.

monuments to people who have bettered society are understandable.
erecting monuments to those who hinder it, frankly baffle me.

Except these monuments aren't dedicated to history. They were erected as a reaction to desegregation. They are monuments to racism, and you've been falsely led to believe that they are monuments to history.

Seraph, here's a piece, written in very neutral language, that shows how the confederate monuments were misrepresentations of history even when they were being put up. They were part of a pretty successful effort to rewrite the motives and events of the Civil War.

AP Explains: How Robert E. Lee went from hero to racist icon

"I think it wisest not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the example of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered."

-General Robert E. Lee.

No crowd, no problem.
Baltimore removed all 4 of its Confederate statues overnight

When are they removing the statue of Senator Robert Byrd?

If there is one, I hope soon, but the ones to traitors who fought to own slaves kinda have priority.

Gonna downvote you for being an idiot but really?
You seem to think there's something wrong with being gay.
You seem to think there's something wrong with being a drag queen.
That pretty much a dive into "playground mode" where the first "go to" is
saying. "You fag."
Pretty God damned sad.
Myabe Fish is a big Abe Vigoda fan. - who isn't.
Sad that he's actually dead.
Not to mention the fish is the sign early Christians (the cool ones who had lots of orgies)
would recognise each other. So there's that.

Actually vilifying people by calling them gay is very popular on this site. Recently foobar let out a Tourette’s size rant about conservative cocksuckers, pasty-assed men, and grooming little boys. It was an icky insight into his psyche, but illustrative of the fact that virulent homophobia is alive and well on both the left and the right.