"Geographic disadvantage" is a wonderful euphemism for gerrymandered districts. But hey, let's jettison the "identity politics" (another wonderful euphemism which collates "everything not straight white dude" into a single, bigotry-free label) in the hopes that we get more rural whites to realize that their red states have been fucking them over for the past half-century, than we lose in disaffected groups for whom civil liberties are just so overrated!

Right, as if White Working Class isn't another identity group, better called White Worried Class.
Worried somebody else might get a piece of the pie.

White Working Class is another identity group, and it should be ignored...but if you ignore the "working class" part of that equations you will lose again and again. If you keep separating people you are doing the rights work for them. And if your reaction is to be believed all you saw was white and ignored the working class part all together.

Because if you do your are already down to 40% of the vote and losing is getting old. i am sick of worrying about the black vote of the women's vote if a you are going to win you need to think about what is best for America if you can't make that argument you lose.

Or maybe you should stop nominating centrists and let the left have a go at it.

I don't think you will ever get it, but, our robot overlords will lead us to salvation. God Bless their oily appendages.

I don't think you will ever get it but here goes again... It is not about left vs Right it hasn't been for a long time...it is about populist vs elite up and down scale not left vs right...we have all of the Clintonites saying is about race and sexuality...this is about making a living... you know life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...about every body being equal you know E Pluribus unum...the common good if you can't make that argument you lose.

The first person who comes out and tries to win new voters tries to appeal all of the voters not just trying to hold on to core voters will win.

The right doesn't think everyone should be equal and your Clintonites want to compromise with them.

OK I am no friend of the Clinonites but I don't see any of them wanting to sell out the bill of rights, or the civil right amendment, or the voting right amendment.
They are a bit to cozy with the banks for my liking but they are not what you paint them out to be.

U-G-L-Y
You ain't got no white allies
We're Dems
We're Dems

If you can add a positive... here is how we are going to do it message to that...that's it.

"Yeah fuck all the spics and the niggers and the fags and the cunts, if they're not bending over for straight white men willingly, we'll make them bend over!"

All politics is identity politics, we just don't call it that when talking about straight white men, which is still the block with the most power.

Sounds like you got a big chip on your shoulder...I said we should avoid racial based politics and you break out with whitey trying to keep me down..WTF

I'm merely stating the absurdity of saying "Identity Politics doesn't work". It sure as shit works, to the tune of the 2016 election, which was about how goddamned spooked straight white men as a voting bloc are of anyone who isn't them.

What you're asking for is concessions from minorities. You're not going to be getting them, ever again.

What I am asking for is an America candidate, what Trump pretended to be. Someone who can unite the Clinonites and the Berni Bros and bring back unions to the Democratic fold...if we keep getting separated into us and them...well look around you.

What I am asking for is an America candidate, what Trump pretended to be.

You must have seen a different campaign than I did - he campaigned as a racist, his initial popularity was based on the birther bullshit that he promoted for years. He was constantly blaming some non-white group for low wages, or terrorism, or crime, etc.

America First...we will get your jobs back....we will fix the bad trade agreement...we will fix your healthcare...all of it was populist rhetoric and all of it was lies.

Ya Trump is a racist, an Authoritarian, but he saw What Clinton never saw the pain in the working class. He scapegoated Mexicans. told everybody the Muslims were going to kill us and told Black people what do you have to lose...but it was more than Clinton told them....If you weren't in a big city you never even seen her. There are States she never even went to.

Ok, I have no idea what you're even advocating for.

Same as I have been for 40 years...

As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.”[3] People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens. For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.

We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

There's the rub. The New Deal was a big help to white people, others were deliberately excluded. Same with the GI Bill, FHA, etc. Non-white people are still in significantly worse shape financially than whites, as a group.
Efforts to address that disparity seems to be what you dismiss as identity politics.

Efforts to address that disparity led back around to economic justice for all.

Poor People's Campaign

The Poor People’s Campaign was motivated by a desire for economic justice: the idea that all people should have what they need to live. King and the SCLC shifted their focus to these issues after observing that gains in civil rights had not improved the material conditions of life for many African Americans. The Poor People’s Campaign was a multiracial effort—including African-Americans, Caucasians, Mexican-Americans, Puerto Ricans, and Native Americans—aimed at alleviating poverty regardless of race.

Identity politics is self sabotage. Wage slaves fighting to be equal wage slaves instead of asking why the system is so stacked against all of them.

That was an inspiring moment, all those years ago. It didn't lead to economic justice for all.

Assasinations and federal government led hostilities tend to nip those movements in the bud. All the more reason to keep fighting for it.

The New Deal was a big help to white people,

Because black people are ineligible for social security, unemployment insurance has a no blacks clause, The WPA didn't let black people work, not allowed in unions, the FDIC doesn't take deposits from black people.

There never was a black guy who bought his house on the GI bill, wasn't eligible for tuition free school, FHA didn't give loans to black people either.

You're making my point.

That the new deal and the second bill of rights helps all of America including the rich and especially black folks?

No one was deliberately excluded from the new deal, due to racial prejudice of the 30's some were but it wasn't of the intention of the law. and it did help a lot of black peopel despite efforts to segregate.

How about my point that the right has everybody split into so many groups that most of them fight the common good because they didn't get special treatment. and that the 3rd way is the biggest purveyors of that toxic message to the determent of all

That the new deal and the second bill of rights helps all of America including the rich and especially black folks?
But it didn't - you just said so yourself.

I didn't help some people in the 30's because of local people being excluded. It sure as hell helps a lot of folks today. It wasn't the law that excluded people it was local politicians. And guess what it help a lot of black people in the day not all were excluded.

So we should stop the ecnomic justice because there were some people who got excluded in the 30's?

Passing the second bill of rights would help black folks more than white folks for the simple reason they have less money

passing a $15 minimum wage law would help blacks more than whites because blacks are most effected by low wages

Black people by and large are sicker than whites due to lack of money and environment

But none of that is important because of what Black lives matter?

Because they're still excluded. If you don't want to fix that, why would anybody think your new, new deal will be any better.

ya last time I was social security office I saw the Blacks not allowed sign right over the door...just quit.

Universal healthcare...except blacks and gays.

The right to decent housing everybody but Mexicans

QUIT THE POOR ME BULLSHIT!!

Thanks for making my point...a $15 an hour minimum wage, universal healthcare, free university education might just help that..ya think?

And when are you going to realize it is poor people...not black green or purple.

You're revolution will succeed just to the point where white guys get a better deal, then it will be over, because inequality won't seem like a problem anymore.

Well you got one part right...when its over, inequality won't be much of a problem. Most of the problems of inequality are fiscal. There will still be racist . But they will have little or no effect on anybodies life but their own.

If it's not a problem for you, then it's not a problem.

If it is problem for you I would like to know what that problem is and how you expect the government to fix it. Because all I have heard so far is rhetoric with no basis in law or fact.

There is one law that could rightfully be consider a racial law ( although even that is not completely true), that needs federal attention...the voting rights act .

Other than that, what federal law would you enact? Because I see all of this as people in power in the black communities keeping their bread buttered at the cost of black people living in poverty.

There are ton of things that could and should be done on the local and state level depending on where you live..but nationally we have already done that.

++++++++Edit++++

And moreover back to the original point of this post... Identity politics... why isn't equal justice for ALL good enough...why does it have to black justice or blue justice why can't it be justice for all.

I think every candidate should go to... say to the NAACP and make their pitch. I also think just like Bernie they should go to Liberty Univercity the heart of the Christian right and make their pitch there as well....and it should be the same pitch.

Do you actually believe that the current state of affairs is equal justice for all, as delivered?

No, but that is what you point to when you make your argument. "This is America and here we have justice for all"
You don't make one argument here and one argument there. This is something that is good for America don't make the argument narrow aimed at one group or another.


The shit that happened in Virginia you have to come out 4 square against and as hard as you can. These are racist Nazi sons a bitches. I shouldn't be hard to make that argument without ever saying BLACK or Jew or Woman...it is just wrong for America

When you are running for city counsel or president you say we have a serious problem with police shooting unarmed citizens...in stead of...well you know.

You might be interested in the letter I got from Bernie today....

One of those strong candidates is State Senator Vincent Fort who is waging a bold campaign to bring progressive government to the City of Atlanta - one of the largest metropolitan centers in the country. He is unapologetically standing up for middle-class and working class families, for blacks, whites and Latinos, for women and the gay community. And he can win the election on November 7, 2017.

Plainly identity politics...but it lead with

"He is unapologetically standing up for middle-class and working class families"

It is that subtle.

But you've got your head so far up your own ass on what'd be a good deal for you, you forget about much more basic rights minorities don't have yet, stuff like:

Right not to have your family not ripped apart (immigration reform)
Right to the same pay as the other 50% of the country that has the same skill set (wage gap)
Right to not be killed like a fucking dog because you produce more melanin (state based crime against blacks)
Right to use the bathroom in peace (transgender protections)
Right to equal access of public goods (anti-LGBT business/housing/adoption protections)

And let's not forget the big one,
Right not be treated as subhuman just because you don't have a straight white cock

You keep pretending like your ideas would help everybody, but you're just throwing everyone who doesn't look like you table scraps while you get all the prime cuts. You want to maintain your hegemony on power. It's just another supply-side charade -- it didn't work for distribution of wealth, and it doesn't work for distribution of power either.

We're not going to sit on the floor hoping we make it to the table some day. We damn well know that hasn't ever worked. You want our voting bloc? Earn it or fuck off.

Yes, I do. The blacks got the civil rights act because it was quickly becoming clear that without it there would be a national level of civil unrest and blood in the street.

We got gay marriage because Jim Obergefell initially bankrolled his own lawsuit against the state of Ohio.

You guys have decided to help only at the point in which it becomes politically untenable not to. You waving a rainbow flag doesn't do shit to make up for the beatings and dehumanization we had to deal with to finally get you to realize we're human too.

Women got the vote by making men's lives hell, not because men had some special change of heart.

You want some sort of award for doing the literal bare minimum to not be pure scum? Sorry bruh, ain't happening.

I'm not special -- special would be asking for unique rights that others don't have; you know, *exactly* what straight white men have been doing for as long as "The West" has existed. It's not asking for special treatment to be able to have our own bodily autonomy respected. It's not being *special* to ask that we get a seat at the table too. It's just that you've had power for so long that you think "don't throw our lives away" is a special ask. Get fucked.

You still want us get behind *your* vision of what America should be. We've been doing that for over a century. Feel free to join the ranks, but your leadership is no longer required or desirable.

I just want business to give us a reach around. Maybe some infrastructure and a nice UBI or something so I can buy some nice Soylent Green Plus every Friday while I bicker with the AI cashier about how much my teeth are worth in terms of biomass and genetic value.

As I see it, the task of government in its relation to business is to assist the development of an economic declaration of rights, an economic constitutional order. This is the common task of statesman and business man. It is the minimum requirement of a more permanently safe order of things.

So ya... a decent reach around.

You mean in terms of government making businesses provide for people via taxes and salary? Or...
Because what i'm seeing is corporations offering minimum wage factory jobs and replacing positions with robots.

In 1950:
Minimum wage: $0.75/hour
Gas: $0.27 or 22m
Movie ticket: $0.48 or 38m
Rent: $42 or 56hrs
Source: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2012/04/05/How-Well-Can-You-Live-on-Minimum-Wage.aspx#page1


That equates, with inflation, to 2017 as:
(I used an inflation calculator)
Minimum wage: $7.61 hour... but the dollar bought more then. (Min wage in 2017 is $7.25)
Gas: $2.74 (or 22m 1950s)
Movie ticket: $4.87 (or 38m 1950s work)
Rent: $426.14 (or 56hrs 1950s work)

You mean in terms of government making businesses provide for people via taxes and salary

It doesn't change it starts with a $15 minimum wage and goes through labor unions.

What you are seeing is automation that has been going on since the time of Fulton and his steam engine. unemployment is very low but so are wages. There is nowhere in the country where minimum wage will get you a one room apartment. The basis for the Minimum wage is to make it someone living alone can support themselves independently.

A $15 an hour MW would do that. A robot may take you job some time in the future they have been eliminating jobs for a long time...but chances are you will get hungry before that.

here let me save you some math

A History Of The Minimum Wage

A living wage, universal healthcare, the right to unionize, social security, unemployment insurance...pretty basic stuff. Still having a hard time seeing how any of this is anti gay or anti black...it is just pro working Americans.

After these threads I think is important that this gets said again...

“We’ve got to show the American people that when we don’t let the Trumps of the world divide us up, [that] when we stand together black and white and Latino and gay and straight, they have all of the power and the money, but we have the people.”

And if ...YOU... have to be Special, you will never be... US... and you will always be a victim.

“This is the lesson of history,” the Democratic White House hopeful said at a campaign rally. "When people stand together, there is nothing we cannot accomplish.

You're right.

Everyone needs to work together because we're all getting fucked. But we also need to be more empathetic toward each other.

I mean, a lot of these divisions are engineered through media, programs, and politics... and we end up being crabs that pull each other back into the pot instead of escaping.

The crabs have to organize and work together to get out because we are going to be lunch for the rich (and I mean people that have *hundreds* of millions of dollars, not some asshole in Wyoming with land and horses and 20 kids and several houses- that's not the people at play here)

Agreed...but that doesn't need to be what you lead with in your politics...the primary threat to the American people is not racial injustice it is income inequality.

"Hillary Clinton will deliver a campaign speech Friday in Cedar Rapids, Iowa in a speech that looks to be geared towards women."

Why a week before the election would you separate the electorate

Here in this speech that was an ecnomic speech she mention Trump over and over not once did she mention minimum wage or income inequality not once.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?413874-1/hillary-clinton-lays-economic-vision

Instead she take Trumps attack on her support for trade deals as the center post...trade deals was not the problem, but her lack of a populist message left her defending 30 year old trade agreements.

It doesn't matter what the primary threat is. We need to work together to improve our lot and change the deal with American business and government. That includes immigration, racism, economic security, and economic opportunities. HownisnAmerica a super power yet it's probably better (quality of life-wise) to live in Europe or Japan or Canada for a great many things? America has the money to take care of its citizens.

It doesn't matter what the primary threat is

OK we are done here...I can't communicate with someone who fears robots but doesn't care about income inequality.

Your political priorities are twisted...Immigration is not a threat to this country you like Hillary Clinton are responding to imaginary threats created by the right.

Racism what possible law would you pass that isn't passed now

Economic security, and Economic opportunities. what do you think I have been talking about?

And I don't give a Flying F what they do in Europe or Japan for that matter and I am pretty sure they have racism in Canada

But better primary and secondary education, a living wage, healthcare all would make an substantial and immediate impact on working people right here in the US we make law here that effects us...we can't control what Japan does.

And for the most part we don't need government money to do this as a mater of fact the government would make money on almost all of this. we just need a base for the workers and that is a cost of business not government. what government could do for business is remove the cost of providing healthcare.

Sorry, I just don't "get it".

Oh I do it sounds like you need a plan ticket and a passport.
Because that sure as hell is not a political answer more like a travel guide. I will stay here and see if I can make this place better have fun.

Reread my comment again.

I said that *I* do not get it.

Not that you don't get it.

The joke is getting old...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well that's funny

MSNBC... two minutes of Trump bashing preceeded the topic.

And no Democrat message is complete without reminding us that Hillary won the popular vote with 11 counties in California have more registered voters than residents of voting age including LA County which is 144%. Only in corrupt Democrat states can the votes be fixed this badly, hence the "disadvantage"

And yet there was still no voter fraud...lousy record keeping. They do need to clean it up but 144% didn't vote...there names are still on the rolls after they moved.
Proportionment is not taken from the voter rolls but from the census.

P.S. that was not suppose to be an up vote.

That could be a fair point but I think we are both speculating with our explanations.

Fair enough... but it sounds to me like an election commissioner or county clerk what even they call them should lose their job.

That statistic is taken *from* a "Judicial Watches review of a 2016 EAC EVACS report" from an article written by "Tyler Durden".

I looked up the data. It's a voluntary census. However, re: EAC criticisms:


It states the complaint came from "The Election Integrity Project California, Inc." and "Judicial Watch, Inc" and calls these websites "Non-partisan organizations" yet (1) they are Incorporated and (2) the wiki says:



re: The Electoral Integrity Project

They seem to have better chops, but seem a bit radical in terms of:

So, while I appreciate the legal gesture, it's not a reliable source to say that LA country has stacked voters. I'm not saying they don't, but that's not a solid source (IMHO).

That said MSMBC is pretty shaite.

Trump won few if any congressional votes. They were won by (R) with a few Not Her. Distancing from Trump was and still is an important Republican strategy.
The very framework of the argument is a decades old problem of the Democratic party.

and about those geography problems...Cooper says Dems won nearly half of 2016 vote, but hold only 35% of NCGA seats

Last year, Democrats won nearly 50% of the vote, yet they hold only 38% of the seats in the state House and 30% of the seats in the state Senate.

— Roy Cooper on Friday, July 28th, 2017 in in a newsletter

Mostly True.

For those concerned with racial justice you might to consider you options now...because this is what you are up against. A racist fringe now emboldened by a Whitehouse that empowers them.


"The August 12 "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, looks like it will be the largest organized racist demonstration in recent memory. But that's not the only reason it is important. First, while there have been dozens of far-right rallies since Trump's election, this will be the first major, national rally run by the alt-right's openly white nationalist wing. Second, after months of arguments, this is also an opportunity for a large swath of progressives to come together in opposition to the far right.

The Largest Fascist Rally in Recent Memory Is Expected This Week -- Can the Left Unite Against It?